Denso Long Life Iridium vs NGK Laser Iridium

[john_pifer]

Originally Posted By: Hootbro
Originally Posted By: john_pifer

The 05+ Tacoma 4.0L uses direct ignition. Mine is an 07.

The old 3.4L Tacoma used waste spark ignition.


Quite honestly, I would not draw any engineering level conclusion with your examples or pictures.

If your pic was from a normal 30K plug change, maybe. Other than that, to many other factors come into play as either maker made them 30K plugs and not 90K plugs and beyond 30K, you make the assumption that wear rates on the electrode tip should be linear when it may have not been designed that way for the NGK.

Quite frankly, that far right Denso towards the middle, looks just as bad as the NGK plugs.

Either way, it looks like both brands held up well.


No engineering doctorate needed to see that the ground electrodes on the Denso plugs are thicker than the ground electrodes on the NGKs. Whether that's due to the NGK GEs being thinner from the factory (my conclusion) or to them actually eroding faster, who knows.

Were they run 3x longer than called for in the FSM? Yes. However, it's obvious to see that, left in service, the NGK plugs would have failed before the Denso, due to one or more ground electrodes dwindling down to nothing due to spark erosion. That makes it obvious to me which plugs are built stouter.

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: john_pifer
In my experience, the Denso are built stouter than NGK.

My V6 Tacoma came from the factory with Denso on one side of the engine, and NGK on the other.

My truck came with copper spark plugs, and I ran them about three times as long as you're supposed to, according to the scheduled maint. guide, which calls for them to be changed at 30K.

As you can see from this pic, the ground electrodes on the NGK plugs are significantly more eroded than the Denso plugs. One of the NGKs, as you can see, is even more eroded than the other two. That one came out of the driver's side rear cylinder.

That being said, I don't have a new Denso and a new NGK to compare - it's possible that the NGKs start out with thinner ground electrodes.

Replaced with these:

That is not a valid comparison, because each bank is firing differently due to waste spark ignition. The reverse firing bank will have less wear on the center electrode and more on the outer electrode, the opposite on the regular firing bank. I have similar difference in wear on the same plug type (Motorcraft OEM, Autolite copper) on Ford Taurus and Escort.




These plugs came from a Tacoma 4.0, which uses Direct Ignition. The old 3.4 uses Waste Spark Ignition.

 

[The Critic]

I have received the Densos. Hopefully the eBay seller didn't jip me, but it does look to be the authentic Denso Iridium Plugs:

$42.77 for 4 plugs, shipped. The Honda parts website that I normally use wants $15.72/plug.

Also, it pays to utilize Japanese aftermarket sources sometimes. The genuine Honda drive belt was $48 online, while the aftermarket Bando belt was only $22 shipped - though it did take quite some time to find the correct part number.

 

[doitmyself]

In the past you have been pretty adamant that OEM labeled parts and aftermarket labeled parts from the same company are not the same, with the chance that the aftermarket part is of lesser quality. You often insist that OEM parts are engineered and manufactured better than the "same" aftermarket part, even when they are made by the same company.

Are you confident the Bando labeled belt is as good as the Honda belt?

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
In the past you have been pretty adamant that OEM labeled parts and aftermarket labeled parts from the same company are not the same, with the chance that the aftermarket part is of lesser quality. You often insist that OEM parts are engineered and manufactured better than the "same" aftermarket part, even when they are made by the same company.

Are you confident the Bando labeled belt is as good as the Honda belt?


Oh, I forgot to put a disclaimer - these parts are for a co-worker who wishes to spend as little as possible.

I suppose if the Bando belt lasts 75% of the miles of the OE Honda belt, that would be OK.

The Genuine Honda plugs have the exact same Denso part # that I have - so I would expect those to be 100% identical.

 

[stephen9666]

I recently went with a Bando belt for my Sonata. It also took a little work to figure out the part number. If memory serves, I had to go to the Bando website's catalog to find the correct number. I eventually found the best price was on ebay for a Bando belt that was private-labled for Federated Auto Parts.

The belt I purchased was made in Japan, fit well and was well priced. It has worked very well, so I've been happy.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Where do you buy OEM parts ? At authorized dealer, right ?

I bought after market brake light switch for my E430 a couple years ago, it didn't work very well so I went to dealer and I got the exact part(from color to part number to after market part and the original had different color and part number) at 3 times the cost of after market part. The final insult was it did the same thing. So I trace he wire and found that one wire was loose.

Dealers may have after market parts and sold them as OEM parts.

 

[hypervish]

Bando belts are quality belts. Bando is an OEM Honda Brand. The belts on my 04' Accord were Bando, and I know for a fact they were never changed.

I believe they are OEM brand for Toyota as well.

 

[doitmyself]

Originally Posted By: hypervish
Bando belts are quality belts. Bando is an OEM Honda Brand. The belts on my 04' Accord were Bando, and I know for a fact they were never changed.

I believe they are OEM brand for Toyota as well.

But, The Critic often claims that the Honda or Toyota labeled Bando belt (or whatever part) is designed and manufactured better than the aftermarket Bando belt for the same application. His stance is that a manufacturer makes one level (better) product for OEM and a lesser level for the aftermarket sales. It's tough to prove either way IMO.

His answer indicates that he has not changed this stance.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself

But, The Critic often claims that the Honda or Toyota labeled Bando belt (or whatever part) is designed and manufactured better than the aftermarket Bando belt for the same application. His stance is that a manufacturer makes one level (better) product for OEM and a lesser level for the aftermarket sales. It's tough to prove either way IMO.

His answer indicates that he has not changed this stance.


See these two posts that I found on another forum that I frequent. Note the bolded parts.

Quote:
I read in the other post about "Gates is an OE supplier". I
think that statement, although true holds no basis on
replacement choice. Although Gates may be an OE supplier,
that does not mean that they build their replacement belts
to the same quality standards as they do for OE
applications. Try this. Take a bunch of different belts and
look at all of them. Every aftermarket belt that I have seen
has what appears to be the same groove pattern. Now look at
OE belts. They don't look the same.

They don't have the same texture, OE belts APPEAR "fuzzier
or softer". They also have a different groove pattern.
Visually, it looks like the male part of the Vee on the belt
has much larger flat spots. This equates to me that the
individual vee is wider, so it doesn't ride as low in the
pulley, ensuring that you get maximum compression into the
sides of the pulley grooves.

So, my thoughts are that you can get by with aftermarket
belts on a lot of applications, but there are some that you
will regret. The same can be said for all aftermarket parts
as well. Only experience will tell you when.


Quote:
I challenged the good folks at Gates manufacturing (during
AAPEX show some years ago) to explain to me exactly why
their aftermarket hoses did not fit the same as the OE ones
they supplied. After being told repeatedly that they were
one in the same, I produced an OE hose and the Gates
aftermarket "equivalent". They were obviously different. I
was told the differences were to allow for an easier
installation. I called them on it and explained just where
the aftermarket hose, when properly installed would contact
the bolts for the idler arm and eventually wear through.
Ultimately I was able to speak with an engineer who actually
knew the score, he told me that in many cases the OE owns
the dies and tooling for each specific application and that
they have agreements to not use the OE owned dies and
tooling to produce products for the aftermarket so they
create their own with subtle changes to produce the
aftermarket products. After seeing how [censored] the fit on
Gates aftermarket hoses are, I believed him


http://members.iatn.net/forums/search/se...p;fv=3&qv=1

 

[avi]

100K miles, time to replace plugs for my 2007 Honda Civic Si FA5 K20Z3

I was going to get the NKG but Amazon has the Denso 3419 SK22PR-M11S for half the price less than $5 each!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002FOF1L2


any reason not to go with the Denso?

-avi

 

[PandaBear]

For that price I'd just go with Denso, yes NGK may be slightly better but if the model number is listed as OEM then it is tested to be good enough for the interval recommended by the OEM.

 

[Trav]

The first time i pulled the plugs on my then brand new Honda Blackbird was a bit of a shock, 2 plugs were NGK and 2 were Denso, i got this bike direct grey market in the crate so no one messed with it.

I never found out what the reason for this was but i found out later they did it on many models. The OE replacements from Honda were all Denso.
I guess both are good enough for Honda. Bando is a good belt, i find them OE on quite a few Japanese cars.

 

[ARB1977]

Originally Posted By: Trav
The first time i pulled the plugs on my then brand new Honda Blackbird was a bit of a shock, 2 plugs were NGK and 2 were Denso, i got this bike direct grey market in the crate so no one messed with it.

I never found out what the reason for this was but i found out later they did it on many models. The OE replacements from Honda were all Denso.
I guess both are good enough for Honda. Bando is a good belt, i find them OE on quite a few Japanese cars.

Toyotas 3.4L and even the 4.0L were that way too. NGK one side and Denso on the other.

 

[camrydriver111]

eBay scares me!

 

[Scuderia]

Denso long life has a 0.7 mm electrode and NGK Laser Iridium has a 1.0 mm electrode. JCWhitney has the densos for 5 bucks each. I searched for a promo code on Google, and got 4 for $17 shipped.

 

[David1]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: JOD
I did a plug change in an '03 CRV with about 60K of very hard miles, 8 years of 1-3 mile trips. The NGK Lasers were the OEM plugs, and based on the condition, I can highly recommend them. The gap was as close to new as my measurement tool could tell. I was tempted to just clean and reinstall them but since I already had the others on hand I just installed the new ones. The NGK's in my own car look great at 60K as well. I have no experience w/the Denso plugs, but the NGK Lasers are top notch.


Thanks!

Interestingly enough, upon further review, the Honda part # for the 2007-11 plugs gives you a set of the Denso plugs. I guess they must have changed:

http://www.bernardiparts.com/Honda-Spark-Plug-CR-V__9807B-5615W.aspx



Your right.. a few years ago they switched.. Honda used to use NGK but I have pulled out DENSOs lately on cars that are doing there first Tune up... I feel stupid somtimes b/c I tell people the NGK is acutal OE part...

Then DENSOs come out the car.... I think HONDA and others have switched to DENSO for the cost.

I know most times NGKs cost more $$$$

 

[L_Sludger]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
Densos are made in japan = better

Per Carnoobie's advice, I have ordered the Denso SKJ20DR-M11.

Now back to finding a torque wrench that can measure 13 ft-lbs accurately.

Make sure you grease up the brake pad abutment poi... I mean antiseize the threads

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
Now back to finding a torque wrench that can measure 13 ft-lbs accurately.

The Harbor Freight torque wrenches are good, and often on sale for about $10

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Now back to finding a torque wrench that can measure 13 ft-lbs accurately.

The Harbor Freight torque wrenches are good, and often on sale for about $10

I've given up on that for the plugs which give you a torque angle on the box. That has to be a more reliable method of installation especially for those plugs with a metal gasket.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: David1
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: JOD
I did a plug change in an '03 CRV with about 60K of very hard miles, 8 years of 1-3 mile trips. The NGK Lasers were the OEM plugs, and based on the condition, I can highly recommend them. The gap was as close to new as my measurement tool could tell. I was tempted to just clean and reinstall them but since I already had the others on hand I just installed the new ones. The NGK's in my own car look great at 60K as well. I have no experience w/the Denso plugs, but the NGK Lasers are top notch.


Thanks!

Interestingly enough, upon further review, the Honda part # for the 2007-11 plugs gives you a set of the Denso plugs. I guess they must have changed:

http://www.bernardiparts.com/Honda-Spark-Plug-CR-V__9807B-5615W.aspx



Your right.. a few years ago they switched.. Honda used to use NGK but I have pulled out DENSOs lately on cars that are doing there first Tune up... I feel stupid somtimes b/c I tell people the NGK is acutal OE part...

Then DENSOs come out the car.... I think HONDA and others have switched to DENSO for the cost.

I know most times NGKs cost more $$$$


Honda has never been that consistent on which source they use. My wife's Civic had factory NGK Laser Platinum plugs (labelled assembled in Japan) but the identical aftermarket (i.e. not Honda labeled) ones I got were made in Japan. There are lots of reports (including this thread) of both being used in the same engine at the factory. I've had two Acura cars (back when they still said Honda on the engine) and both had factory Nippondenso plugs.

As long as I've been working on my cars, Honda has specified both as OEM. If it was a conventional plug, the list of NGK plugs was always twice as long as Denso, since they had V-Power and standard electrodes, while all Denso (or Nippondenso) were U-Groove.

Toyota also specs both. That makes a lot of sense for them since the original Nippondenso was spun off from Toyota, and they still own about 25% of what's currently Denso.

A lot of other Japanese carmakers don't specify Denso plugs, but I wouldn't have a problem using any of their plugs that they claim to be an exact drop-in replacement. As far as I'm concerned, they're fully capable of making a high quality replacement regardless of whether or not the manufacturer specs them. Honda of course specs both, but I'm pretty certain that the equivalent Denso for a Honda can be used in the same application where a Subaru uses the equivalent NGK plug. You get everyone from European car owners and American motorcycle owners using NGK and Denso even though they weren't specified. I don't have as much confidence in Champion or Autolite.