When are we going to start a reunion forum so the old reincarnated trolls can all be welcomed properly?
New oil additive saves 2% on gas
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Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
When are we going to start a reunion forum so the old reincarnated trolls can all be welcomed properly?
Great idea Steve. Or just call them out as they pop up. I put all reincarnates on Ignore, and toggle to read every once in a while to reinforce why I put them there in the first place.
When are we going to start a reunion forum so the old reincarnated trolls can all be welcomed properly?
Great idea Steve. Or just call them out as they pop up. I put all reincarnates on Ignore, and toggle to read every once in a while to reinforce why I put them there in the first place.
MolaKule
Staff member
How about they just remove ethanol from the fuel and increase efficiency 10% by volume...
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
When are we going to start a reunion forum so the old reincarnated trolls can all be welcomed properly?
I don't know but many can be found regularly on the oil filter board now too. Though I suspect most are multiple aliases of the same troll.
Agree though, an excellent idea.
When are we going to start a reunion forum so the old reincarnated trolls can all be welcomed properly?
I don't know but many can be found regularly on the oil filter board now too. Though I suspect most are multiple aliases of the same troll.
Agree though, an excellent idea.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
ILs have been available in various forms since about 2009.
New forms of ILs are being developed almost yearly.
So far I have been able formulate a PCMO oil with both forms of IL.
I dropped both the viscosity (down to 8.7 cSt) and ZDDP (down to 300 ppm) and the oil was tested in engines speced for 5W30 to 10W30. Wear was in the 0.2 to 0.7 ppm/1k miles.
So ILs doe show some promise.
Awesome thread, when the strange grumpy gossipers don't post anyway. What's keeping IL from becoming the norm, or at least in top of the line oils? If oils already meet specs, why would an oil company produce something better? Lower friction and wear for racing maybe.
ILs have been available in various forms since about 2009.
New forms of ILs are being developed almost yearly.
So far I have been able formulate a PCMO oil with both forms of IL.
I dropped both the viscosity (down to 8.7 cSt) and ZDDP (down to 300 ppm) and the oil was tested in engines speced for 5W30 to 10W30. Wear was in the 0.2 to 0.7 ppm/1k miles.
So ILs doe show some promise.
Awesome thread, when the strange grumpy gossipers don't post anyway. What's keeping IL from becoming the norm, or at least in top of the line oils? If oils already meet specs, why would an oil company produce something better? Lower friction and wear for racing maybe.
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
But folks, it is the the real thing. I know because I have some in the lab.
Hopefully THIS^^^ will be enough to quell those on here who are COMPELLED to instantly label everything as "snake oil", from doing so with this group of additives.
Good thing MolaKule is posting here. Otherwise it would be mostly the frequent ones that cynically condemn everything and talk about nothing.
Not every new development will result in breakthroughs. Some will, and this is a good candidate.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
But folks, it is the the real thing. I know because I have some in the lab.
Hopefully THIS^^^ will be enough to quell those on here who are COMPELLED to instantly label everything as "snake oil", from doing so with this group of additives.
Good thing MolaKule is posting here. Otherwise it would be mostly the frequent ones that cynically condemn everything and talk about nothing.
Not every new development will result in breakthroughs. Some will, and this is a good candidate.
I think the IL being discussed is in the reference and abstract below. This reference is for steel/steel interfaces, but this group has other papers that deal with other metal interfaces. I think that scale-up of synthesis at a reasonable cost is the primary limit.
Ionic Liquids Based on Phosphonium Cations As Neat Lubricants or Lubricant Additives for a Steel/Steel Contact
Inés Otero †, Enriqueta R. López †, Manuela Reichelt ‡, María Villanueva †, Josefa Salgado †, and Josefa Fernández *†
† Laboratory of Thermophysical Properties of Fluids and Biomaterials, Department of Applied Physics, Faculty of Physics, University of Santiago de Compostela, 15782 Santiago de Compostela, Spain
‡ Wilhelm Ostwald Institute for Physical and Theoretical Chemistry, University Leipzig, Linnéstr. 2, 04103 Leipzig, Germany
ACS Appl. Mater. Interfaces, 2014, 6 (15), pp 13115–13128
DOI: 10.1021/am502980m
Publication Date (Web): July 21, 2014
Copyright © 2014 American Chemical Society
*E-mail: [email protected]. Phone: +34881814046. Fax: +34881814112.
After doing several miscibility essays with eight ionic liquids (ILs) and four base oils, the ILs tri(butyl)ethylphosphonium diethylphosphate [P4,4,4,2][C2C2PO4] and trihexyl(tetradecyl)phosphonium tris(pentafluoroethyl)trifluorophosphate [P6,6,6,14][(C2F5)3PF3] were selected to be studied as lubricant additives. The neat IL [P4,4,4,2][C2C2PO4], the base oils, and several blends were characterized in terms of density, viscosity, and thermal stability. The tribological performance of the miscible base oil/IL blends (1 wt %) and the neat [P4,4,4,2][C2C2PO4] were evaluated for the lubrication of an AISI 420 steel–100Cr6 steel contact pair. The friction coefficients and wear volumes obtained are also compared with those corresponding to the pure base oils and their mixtures with conventional additive zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP). As neat lubricants, [P4,4,4,2][C2C2PO4] showed the best antifriction ability, whereas in terms of wear, better results were obtained with [P6,6,6,14][(C2F5)3PF3]. However, higher improvements in both friction and wear were found for blends containing [P4,4,4,2][C2C2PO4]. XPS analyses of the worn surfaces lubricated with these mixtures indicated the presence of phosphorus in the tribofilm formed on the wear track. However, this compound was slightly detected on tribosamples lubricated with blends containing [P6,6,6,14][(C2F5)3PF3].
Ionic Liquids Based on Phosphonium Cations As Neat Lubricants or Lubricant Additives for a Steel/Steel Contact
Inés Otero †, Enriqueta R. López †, Manuela Reichelt ‡, María Villanueva †, Josefa Salgado †, and Josefa Fernández *†
† Laboratory of Thermophysical Properties of Fluids and Biomaterials, Department of Applied Physics, Faculty of Physics, University of Santiago de Compostela, 15782 Santiago de Compostela, Spain
‡ Wilhelm Ostwald Institute for Physical and Theoretical Chemistry, University Leipzig, Linnéstr. 2, 04103 Leipzig, Germany
ACS Appl. Mater. Interfaces, 2014, 6 (15), pp 13115–13128
DOI: 10.1021/am502980m
Publication Date (Web): July 21, 2014
Copyright © 2014 American Chemical Society
*E-mail: [email protected]. Phone: +34881814046. Fax: +34881814112.
After doing several miscibility essays with eight ionic liquids (ILs) and four base oils, the ILs tri(butyl)ethylphosphonium diethylphosphate [P4,4,4,2][C2C2PO4] and trihexyl(tetradecyl)phosphonium tris(pentafluoroethyl)trifluorophosphate [P6,6,6,14][(C2F5)3PF3] were selected to be studied as lubricant additives. The neat IL [P4,4,4,2][C2C2PO4], the base oils, and several blends were characterized in terms of density, viscosity, and thermal stability. The tribological performance of the miscible base oil/IL blends (1 wt %) and the neat [P4,4,4,2][C2C2PO4] were evaluated for the lubrication of an AISI 420 steel–100Cr6 steel contact pair. The friction coefficients and wear volumes obtained are also compared with those corresponding to the pure base oils and their mixtures with conventional additive zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP). As neat lubricants, [P4,4,4,2][C2C2PO4] showed the best antifriction ability, whereas in terms of wear, better results were obtained with [P6,6,6,14][(C2F5)3PF3]. However, higher improvements in both friction and wear were found for blends containing [P4,4,4,2][C2C2PO4]. XPS analyses of the worn surfaces lubricated with these mixtures indicated the presence of phosphorus in the tribofilm formed on the wear track. However, this compound was slightly detected on tribosamples lubricated with blends containing [P6,6,6,14][(C2F5)3PF3].
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
ILs have been available in various forms since about 2009.
New forms of ILs are being developed almost yearly.
So far I have been able formulate a PCMO oil with both forms of IL.
I dropped both the viscosity (down to 8.7 cSt) and ZDDP (down to 300 ppm) and the oil was tested in engines speced for 5W30 to 10W30. Wear was in the 0.2 to 0.7 ppm/1k miles.
So ILs doe show some promise.
I know this is an old post. You mentioned wear was in the 0.2 to 0.7 ppm/1k miles. These numbers mean nothing to me. What would be the average wear in 1k miles for 10w30 sn oil?
ILs have been available in various forms since about 2009.
New forms of ILs are being developed almost yearly.
So far I have been able formulate a PCMO oil with both forms of IL.
I dropped both the viscosity (down to 8.7 cSt) and ZDDP (down to 300 ppm) and the oil was tested in engines speced for 5W30 to 10W30. Wear was in the 0.2 to 0.7 ppm/1k miles.
So ILs doe show some promise.
I know this is an old post. You mentioned wear was in the 0.2 to 0.7 ppm/1k miles. These numbers mean nothing to me. What would be the average wear in 1k miles for 10w30 sn oil?
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Qu is not the only guy or team who is working on Ionic Liquids.
The article makes it sounds like he's a lone wolf hero but that is not the case. This is not to dismiss his research, but he is not the only one doing research on IL's.
And there are private enterprises working on this as well, in deference to the USAToday article.
This paper also describes some research into Ionic Liquids:
A Review of Ionic Liquid Lubricants by
Anthony E. Somers, Patrick C. Howlett, Douglas R. MacFarlane, and Maria Forsyth of the University of Vistoria, Australia, can be found in Lubricants 2013.
QU is the lead author of the paper: Comparison of an oil-miscible ionic liquid and ZDDP as a lubricant anti-wear additive, Jun Qu, Huimin Luo, Miaofang Chi, Cheng Ma, Peter J. Blau, Sheng Dai, Michael B.Viola, in Tribology International l71,(2014)88–97.
So Qu had a large team working with him.
TLT, April 2010 also has an article on IL's.
But folks, it is the the real thing. I know because I have some in the lab.
One of the two IL's I am currently testing is described in: FME Transactions VOL. 36, No 3, 2008, by Michel Roegiers, Hongli Zhang and Boris Zhmud.
the company the last three were working for is now defunct. I went to visit their production site this summer and it was being torn down.
Any information how their ionised vegetable oils performed in your testing?
Qu is not the only guy or team who is working on Ionic Liquids.
The article makes it sounds like he's a lone wolf hero but that is not the case. This is not to dismiss his research, but he is not the only one doing research on IL's.
And there are private enterprises working on this as well, in deference to the USAToday article.
This paper also describes some research into Ionic Liquids:
A Review of Ionic Liquid Lubricants by
Anthony E. Somers, Patrick C. Howlett, Douglas R. MacFarlane, and Maria Forsyth of the University of Vistoria, Australia, can be found in Lubricants 2013.
QU is the lead author of the paper: Comparison of an oil-miscible ionic liquid and ZDDP as a lubricant anti-wear additive, Jun Qu, Huimin Luo, Miaofang Chi, Cheng Ma, Peter J. Blau, Sheng Dai, Michael B.Viola, in Tribology International l71,(2014)88–97.
So Qu had a large team working with him.
TLT, April 2010 also has an article on IL's.
But folks, it is the the real thing. I know because I have some in the lab.
One of the two IL's I am currently testing is described in: FME Transactions VOL. 36, No 3, 2008, by Michel Roegiers, Hongli Zhang and Boris Zhmud.
the company the last three were working for is now defunct. I went to visit their production site this summer and it was being torn down.
Any information how their ionised vegetable oils performed in your testing?
It is very difficult to measure fuel consumption. Most fuel consumption reduce is correlated with some engine rebuild (engine compression gain) after adding engine oil additive to the worn engine. Exhaust emission do not tell the real fuel consumption.
With more and more talk about IL, older papers almost looking at them as if they could become co-bases of some sorts and now renewed attempts to push some oil soluble PAG I wonder what the fate of ionic liquids on the hot side of rings and seals might become. Especially when oils are burnt at higher rates.
If that's true we've begun testing (lowly additivation which I didn't care about of course): Castrol Edge Supercar A 0W-20
The jury is still out on this one, but fwiw there are more hints: https://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/30069-castrol-edge-supercar-a-0w-20-api-sn-ilsac-gf-5/page/46/
MolaKule
Staff member
It is worthwhile to continue research into Ionic Liquids.
However, new base oils at lower costs to manufacture continue to pop up so Ionic Liquids research needs to focus on lower production costs in order to compete.
However, new base oils at lower costs to manufacture continue to pop up so Ionic Liquids research needs to focus on lower production costs in order to compete.
These words don't soothe 
And the scientists are hard-wired to create new problems, says your signature.
I get a feeling that because of prices, properties or testing requirements and else they'd not appear anytime soon in engine oils at higher treat rates. But mentioning new base oils!.. Would you happen to have a feeling, what Estolides might cause when going round in cylinders and chambers with combustion atmosphere and petrol in all the gaps? Not feeling but perhaps being a little silly avoiding the Polyolesters, when embracing others without views on their deposit forming tendencies in comparison.
And the scientists are hard-wired to create new problems, says your signature.I get a feeling that because of prices, properties or testing requirements and else they'd not appear anytime soon in engine oils at higher treat rates. But mentioning new base oils!.. Would you happen to have a feeling, what Estolides might cause when going round in cylinders and chambers with combustion atmosphere and petrol in all the gaps? Not feeling but perhaps being a little silly avoiding the Polyolesters, when embracing others without views on their deposit forming tendencies in comparison.
MolaKule
Staff member
These words don't soothe
No, that is not what it said. You may want to read it again.
MolaKule
Staff member
Just curious as to what your fascination is with estolides?
I'd be most fascinated with Polyisobutylenes actually. Which stems from my impression that for the rotary engine there'd never really been entirely dedicated engine oils, maybe not even from Idemitsu. And having to avoid Polyolesters while not being able to identify any 4T oils heavy on 2T-PIB plus not really knowing how much better (or worse) HC may fare compared to GTL, GTL better or worse than PAO... I got a bit on a basic trip I have to admit.
Then there is Exxon and others showing AN as advantageous over Ester complements in depositing (Exxon for the cold and wet side at least, but others also for oven chains and whatever), so the minor complements became more interesting as well. Beyond some sympathy from the advertising documentation of the BT4-people the Estolides began to look as if they might fit quite well into t h e rotary engine oil.
My idea why the POE did so exceptionally bad according to the ancient Idemitsu fragment became suspecting the combination of their high polarity and high thermal stability. While among the properties of the non polar PIB an early and especially clean decomposition seemed to be advantageous.
So PIB (for cleanliness and maybe good EHL regarding the side gears in a rotary) + GTL (for high VI) + BT4 or else for even higher VI, good lubricity and medium to low polarity is what I'd be shopping for by now. If I had any chance.
But I may be totally off obviously. In the end it was not so much about the BTs actually, that I asked. More like a provocation that could lead to you teaching about true factors of deposit formation on the hot side of seals and rings. If from Estolides or AN, GTL or whatever. The fundamentals remained unclear to me.
Then there is Exxon and others showing AN as advantageous over Ester complements in depositing (Exxon for the cold and wet side at least, but others also for oven chains and whatever), so the minor complements became more interesting as well. Beyond some sympathy from the advertising documentation of the BT4-people the Estolides began to look as if they might fit quite well into t h e rotary engine oil.
My idea why the POE did so exceptionally bad according to the ancient Idemitsu fragment became suspecting the combination of their high polarity and high thermal stability. While among the properties of the non polar PIB an early and especially clean decomposition seemed to be advantageous.
So PIB (for cleanliness and maybe good EHL regarding the side gears in a rotary) + GTL (for high VI) + BT4 or else for even higher VI, good lubricity and medium to low polarity is what I'd be shopping for by now. If I had any chance.
But I may be totally off obviously. In the end it was not so much about the BTs actually, that I asked. More like a provocation that could lead to you teaching about true factors of deposit formation on the hot side of seals and rings. If from Estolides or AN, GTL or whatever. The fundamentals remained unclear to me.
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