PAO in Mobil 1 0w-40

[userfriendly]

Most vehicles, especially luxury brands nowadays, come with 2 years of free oil changes, after that time, most owners do not change their own engine oil.
I have never heard or read a post from anyone with an engine oil related issue where warranty was denied.

It would not make economical sense for an oil company to test and license every product for every OEM on the planet for a nonexistent market share.
For example brand XYZ 0W40 CK-4/SN may pass every OEM and certification under the sun where 0W40 is an approved grade, but not say so on the label.

Where I am at with engine oil is, I look at the product, the reputation of the oil company, what it can do in what engines, applications, and fuel type, and go from there.
I'm not interested in setting long drain records. If an engine oil is 1/3 the price, looks like a sensible alternative to a licensed product, I'll run that and change it with 25% left on the OLM.
I have a yard full of old beaters that love good used engine oil, so nothing goes to waste.

 

[Gokhan]

Mobil 1 0W-40 SN doesn't contain GTL unless they have changed the formulation recently. It contains mostly Visom Group III+ in addition to some PAO and ester to improve oil life and cleaning. The SM formulation was 100% PAO and ester.

At the end, it doesn't matter much. SN formulations beats the SM formulation in every aspect except thin-film oxidation. So, perhaps there is some compromise in turbo performance and oil life but not much and it does do same or better in other areas, such as cleaning and wear.

That said, my 31-year-old engine runs like brand-new on M1 0W-40 SN and I can't be happier. It's the best oil I've used in this engine. These older engines especially benefit from higher oil pressure (resulting in further-reaching piston oil jets) and higher oil-film strength (resulting in less friction and wear in critically lubricated areas) of thicker oil as well as the all the many benefits of a quality synthetic.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Mobil 1 0W-40 SN doesn't contain GTL unless they have changed the formulation recently. It contains mostly Visom Group III+ in addition to some PAO and ester to improve oil life and cleaning. The SM formulation was 100% PAO and ester.

At the end, it doesn't matter much. SN formulations beats the SM formulation in every aspect except thin-film oxidation. So, perhaps there is some compromise in turbo performance and oil life but not much and it does do same or better in other areas, such as cleaning and wear.

That said, my 31-year-old engine runs like brand-new on M1 0W-40 SN and I can't be happier. It's the best oil I've used in this engine. These older engines especially benefit from higher oil pressure (resulting in further-reaching piston oil jets) and higher oil-film strength (resulting in less friction and wear in critically lubricated areas) of thicker oil as well as the all the many benefits of a quality synthetic.


I'm guessing you missed the M1 0w-40 GTL thread. It is in the Euro oil section FYI.

 

[Gokhan]

Interesting, thanks. So, M1 0W-40 SN is gone for good now and has been replaced by M1 FS 0W-40 SN, with a small "FS" label on the front of the bottle:

* Mostly GTL-based (~ 60%) with some PAO (~ 15%) and probably some ester (~ 5%), wonder where they get the GTL from
* Borderline xW-40, almost xW-30 (12.9 cSt, 12.4 cSt would be xW-30)
* No BMW and Nissan GT-R approvals

http://pds.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_FS_0W-40.aspx

 

[OVERKILL]

Mobil had a few GTL plants in the works, I'm guessing they finally got one online.

 

[SR5]

I know M1 has Group III / GTL & PAO in it. But, does it have Ester in it? Not fighting, just asking.

When I directly asked Castrol this question a few years ago in Oz, they said they only used Group III and Group IV in their synthetic Edge oil and no Esters. Also, from memory, when I read the MSDS for a Penrite 10-Tenths oil, proudly claimed to be 100% PAO & Ester, it looked to be only a few % ester. So M1 having 5% ester surprises me. Is this based on a M1 MSDS or Tech Sheet ? Or more of a rumor ?

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: SR5
I know M1 has Group III / GTL & PAO in it. But, does it have Ester in it? Not fighting, just asking.

When I directly asked Castrol this question a few years ago in Oz, they said they only used Group III and Group IV in their synthetic Edge oil and no Esters. Also, from memory, when I read the MSDS for a Penrite 10-Tenths oil, proudly claimed to be 100% PAO & Ester, it looked to be only a few % ester. So M1 having 5% ester surprises me. Is this based on a M1 MSDS or Tech Sheet ? Or more of a rumor ?

I said ~ 5%. It could be less. However, the ester is in there. It's not a rumor. It was officially announced by ExxonMobil in a presentation that M1 0W-40 SN and M1 ESP 5W-30 SN had ester. However, this presentation was before the formula change when M1 0W-40 SN became M1 FS 0W-40 SN. SuperSyn is PAO:

 

[SR5]

Thanks for that, yes Ester in back and white for M1. Very clear.

On a different note, I remember the old Magnatec formula has Ester in it's spec sheet as the component that bonded to the metal surface to resist drain back. The silly "intelligent molecule" name they gave it, or something like that. However I have since heard it no longer uses a ester, but some other chemical, I wonder what that is? It still seems to work very well given the quality of the UOA's coming out for Castrol Magnatec. Looks like castrol is heading in a different direction now days....many paths to the top of the mountain.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Thanks for that, yes Ester in back and white for M1. Very clear.

On a different note, I remember the old Magnatec formula has Ester in it's spec sheet as the component that bonded to the metal surface to resist drain back. The silly "intelligent molecule" name they gave it, or something like that. However I have since heard it no longer uses a ester, but some other chemical, I wonder what that is? It still seems to work very well given the quality of the UOA's coming out for Castrol Magnatec. Looks like castrol is heading in a different direction now days....many paths to the top of the mountain.

Sticking to surfaces is the "lubricity" property of an oil. Yes, synthetic esters and vegetable oils have good lubricity along with Group I conventional base stocks.

A long time ago I had posted the reference below about lubricity. Esters increase lubricity but they may interfere with EP agents such as moly, as they both compete for metal surfaces. They also have stability issues. See page 3:

The following is an excellent article (PDF link) on challenges of using more refined base oils, such as Group II, III, IV, and GTL, as well as esters.

Challenges are great, as Group III, IV, and GTL base oils are regarded as "dry oils" with poor solubility and lubricity. Esters have excellent lubricity but they passivate the metal surfaces and block the AW/EP/FM additives and may therefore increase the wear greatly.

The article doesn't seem to discuss the pressure - viscosity coefficient, which is also important for wear protection but the synthetic base oils have poor pressure - viscosity coefficents as well. Despite this apparent omission, the article is excellent and discusses some great disadvantages and challenges of synthetic base oils and how to possibly overcome these challenges and disadvantages.

 

[SR5]

Thanks for that Gokhan, very interesting.

 

[OVERKILL]

The other component you are thinking of is probably AN's, of which there is a thread on here:

Alkylated Napthenes

They are used as an alternative to Esters (as discussed).

Mobil's old Tri-Syn formula was labelled as such because it consisted of PAO, Esters and AN's. This is likely still the case despite that name going by the wayside. You also have to remember that Mobil, unlike some of the others, has its own chemical company (XOM Chemical) who manufacturers a broad spectrum of PAO base oils, Esters and of course AN's. So they are not purchasing these from a 3rd party.

 

[SR5]

Thanks OverKill. great thread to point me at. It has answered a few questions for me.

 

[Jetronic]

http://www.elektrion.be/profile

It's what the germans used in their oils during WW2, not being aware of ZDDP.

 

[Koz1]

Grabbed this from a Tribo Reference.

The synthetic
PAO base stock has limited ability to dissolve some polar additives and tends to
shrink seals (Rudnick and Shubkin, 1999). PAO base stocks were reported to have
limited ability to dissolve polar additives, such as rust inhibitors, and have a difficult
time in preventing rust formation (Pillon, 2007).

I seriously don't care if I have any PAO in my engine oil.
PAO are very resistant to oxidative thickening.

 

[loneryder]

Is my assumption correct? Mobil 1 0-40fs is full saps and they will be offering a 0-40 ls(low saps) in the future? This would be in addition to or replace the "esp" oils which are expensive at this time. I could see where this would be confusing because at this time, a low saps oil in a DI gasser sludges with long oci's. Until they change our gasoline in NA this could present a problem. Carmaker recommends a 10k oci on their DI gas engines and owner or shop uses 0-40ls oil and you have sludging issues as happened with MB.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: loneryder
Is my assumption correct? Mobil 1 0-40fs is full saps and they will be offering a 0-40 ls(low saps) in the future? This would be in addition to or replace the "esp" oils which are expensive at this time. I could see where this would be confusing because at this time, a low saps oil in a DI gasser sludges with long oci's. Until they change our gasoline in NA this could present a problem. Carmaker recommends a 10k oci on their DI gas engines and owner or shop uses 0-40ls oil and you have sludging issues as happened with MB.

What do you mean by low-ash? Do you mean ACEA C3 (0.8%) or ACEA C4 (0.5%)? Mobil 1 ESP 0W-40 ACEA C3 has just been offered since 0W-40 split into that and the FS version, and that will be it.

The only ACEA C4 they have is a Mobil Super:

http://pds.mobil.com/Belgium-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_ESP_0W-40.aspx

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The other component you are thinking of is probably AN's, of which there is a thread on here:

Alkylated Napthenes

They are used as an alternative to Esters (as discussed).

Mobil's old Tri-Syn formula was labelled as such because it consisted of PAO, Esters and AN's. This is likely still the case despite that name going by the wayside. You also have to remember that Mobil, unlike some of the others, has its own chemical company (XOM Chemical) who manufacturers a broad spectrum of PAO base oils, Esters and of course AN's. So they are not purchasing these from a 3rd party.

Again, it's alkylated naphthalene, not alkylated naphthene. Naphthalene -- an aromatic unsaturated molecule with a benzene ring -- and naphthene -- a saturated hydrocarbon -- are entirely different things.

This said, naphthene molecules also have some useful lubrication properties in conventional base stocks, such as high oil-film strength (pressure - viscosity coefficient [PVC]).

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
The article doesn't seem to discuss the pressure - viscosity coefficient, which is also important for wear protection but the synthetic base oils have poor pressure - viscosity coefficents as well. Despite this apparent omission, the article is excellent and discusses some great disadvantages and challenges of synthetic base oils and how to possibly overcome these challenges and disadvantages.

Some correction on this: While conventional base stocks have higher PVC than synthetic base stocks at room temperature, some patents have claimed that GTL base stocks have higher PVC at high temperatures because they don't thin as much when the temperature is raised.

So, it's hard to say which oil has higher oil-film strength (PVC) but at least one patent is claiming that GTL has higher oil-film strength (PVC) at high temperatures. Since Group III is similar to GTL, one can expect the same. I don't know about PAO but it may also have high oil-film strength at high temperatures for similar reasons.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Again, it's alkylated naphthalene, not alkylated naphthene. Naphthalene -- an aromatic unsaturated molecule with a benzene ring -- and naphthene -- a saturated hydrocarbon -- are entirely different things.

This said, naphthene molecules also have some useful lubrication properties in conventional base stocks, such as high oil-film strength (pressure - viscosity coefficient [PVC]).


Again? When is the first time you've corrected me on this? I copied and pasted the thread title from the link to the other section, please take your issue up with the OP of the thread. Of course you are right (as per the content of the presentation linked within the thread) but this isn't a second correction, so while I may have buggered up using copy/paste with the thread title, there is no "again" taking place here.

 

[Revving2Redline]

I wouldnt go nuts sbout PAO as far as percentage. A group 3 with group 5 is just as good.