Change filter on it's own interval?

[UncleDave]

Why get under the car at all if you don't have to?

Thats the whole point of a 15K filter.

Just use a top side changer every other interval and save both time AND money.

As Broc mentioned a little bit of old oil isn't going to hurt anything and may actually help.



UD

 

[Malo83]

This place never ceases to amaze me, extended oil changes, using oil filters for 2yrs, old oil has good anti wear properties etc,etc.

I'll stick to my 5K OIC, fresh oil and filter.

 

[Ihatetochangeoil]

Originally Posted By: Malo83
This place never ceases to amaze me, extended oil changes, using oil filters for 2yrs, old oil has good anti wear properties etc,etc.

I'll stick to my 5K OIC, fresh oil and filter.


^^^So what he really means is, my mind is made up regardless of facts, leave me alone to laugh and mock those who do differently than I do.

My response? Yuck it up; my 16K used oil is 8 times cleaner than your new out of the bottle contaminated oil. I'm running bypass filtration which is 99.97% efficient at 2 microns, Beta ratio of 2000. Do you have a clue what I just said? And my manufacturer's spec. filter change will be at 30K.
http://www.ntzfilter.com/popup/slide26.asp

If you really think your new oil is so great, read Shannow's post here on p2: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3533589/2

Then search the internet all you wish to, and let me know with a sourced post if you can find an API or SAE or ASTM specification for cleanliness of "new" oil. While you're at it, see if you can post a link to manufacturer's specs (GM, Ford, Chrysler, Acura, Honda, Audi, BMW, Porsche, etc.), pick your OEM and post THEIR specs for cleanliness of new oil.

Hint: https://www.hyprofiltration.com/clientuploads/directory/CaseStudies/PDFs/CAT 5 Star.pdf

There isn't a motor oil on the market clean enough to go in a Caterpillar engine without further filtration. Enjoy your dirty new oil.

Hint: I've spoken on the phone to the President of the PQIA (Petroleum Quality Institute of America) and asked that very question; he told me he'd never been asked that question before.

 

[UncleDave]

This place has it all-

Another set of guy throw away expensive synthetic oil at half the interval the manufactures themselves recommend, use 3X the filters, and do 3 times the work for absolutely no reason other than what makes them feel good.

I dont think one size fits all either way.

- but yes this place never ceases to amuse.

 

[Malo83]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave

This place has it all-

Another set of guy throw away expensive synthetic oil at half the interval the manufactures themselves recommend, use 3X the filters, and do 3 times the work for absolutely no reason other than what makes them feel good.

I dont think one size fits all either way.

- but yes this place never ceases to amuse.

 

[goodtimes]

Cat also says, using a microscope most of the particles are organic matter. I am not taking the time to go back and quote their exact words on that. What I see as facts are when new oil is put into an engine, in one minute all that oil (in a 5 qt system) is filtered about four times through a full flow filter. That is a calculation based of facts. Filters are not that clean themselves, many come unsealed in a cardboard box. What is on them gets into the oil within ten seconds. Not even enough time to get out and check for leaks after an oil change. Engines generate carbon and other hard particles continually, so there goes your pre filtered new oil, it's ruined. The multi pass efficiency test is based on adding a considerable amount of sized particles over a fairly short time. Fram says four hours I think it was. That is supposed to represent real engine use. Using new oil from the bottle as is shouldn't be a cause for concern.

 

[camrydriver111]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Cat also says, using a microscope most of the particles are organic matter. I am not taking the time to go back and quote their exact words on that. What I see as facts are when new oil is put into an engine, in one minute all that oil (in a 5 qt system) is filtered about four times through a full flow filter. That is a calculation based of facts. Filters are not that clean themselves, many come unsealed in a cardboard box. What is on them gets into the oil within ten seconds. Not even enough time to get out and check for leaks after an oil change. Engines generate carbon and other hard particles continually, so there goes your pre filtered new oil, it's ruined. The multi pass efficiency test is based on adding a considerable amount of sized particles over a fairly short time. Fram says four hours I think it was. That is supposed to represent real engine use. Using new oil from the bottle as is shouldn't be a cause for concern.


What about the supposed VOA that showed particles?

Maybe it was their sampling technique?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
What I see as facts are when new oil is put into an engine, in one minute all that oil (in a 5 qt system) is filtered about four times through a full flow filter.


I doubt any oil pump is doing 5 GPM at idle RPM ... maybe so at 3000+ RPM.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Originally Posted By: Lubener
For the small price of a filter, why reuse and leave some dirty oil in the crankcase?


There is a growing body of papers that correlate retaining some used oil as a good anti-wear strategy. This comes from better and unique tribofilms being made by that engine and that oil during normal operations that can't be duplicated by new oil with un-reacted fresh additives.


See, JiffyLube has your back man!


Lol isnt that the truth.

Heck, after mentioning how sludged the filter was in her Volvo when I took over service from the dealer, folks mentioned here how it could have been because they simply didn't replace the filter. And this was a dealership.

I find it hilarious because the service writer had given her so much flak in the past on how she didn't maintain her car to his requirements. One time, they even showed her the nasty filter when she went roughly 750 miles over their 3000 mile window sticker.

 

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
What I see as facts are when new oil is put into an engine, in one minute all that oil (in a 5 qt system) is filtered about four times through a full flow filter.


I doubt any oil pump is doing 5 GPM at idle RPM ... maybe so at 3000+ RPM.


There are probably some. I have posted before more accurately, call it once every 30 secs, same conclusion. Two complete filtrations every minute. Or more, maybe 4-5 at highway speeds. Largely organic matter in new oil isn't a concern, for me. Metal debris and sand (dust) from filter manufacturing is more of a concern.

 

[Oro_O]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
What I see as facts are when new oil is put into an engine, in one minute all that oil (in a 5 qt system) is filtered about four times through a full flow filter.


I doubt any oil pump is doing 5 GPM at idle RPM ... maybe so at 3000+ RPM.



No, ZeeOSix is correct here. I did some research a few months ago and 5gpm @ 3,500 was a reasonable figure for a typical passenger car oil pump - though clear stats were hard to find. Figure 1/4 that at idle, or 1.25 gpm. So a minute at idle to pump a typical 5qt sump.

BUT - I agree with your point. Three passes and, presuming you aren't using a taco shell as filter media, all is well.

 

[Ihatetochangeoil]

I'm not going to swear on the accuracy of what I have done; but I have real world rough figures. Disconnecting my bypass return line (1/8") and measuring flow at 2000 rpm (my cruising speed at highway 65 mph), I get 460 ml in 15 seconds in a graduated beaker. A typical 5 qt system is 4730 ml. 460 ml X 4 = 1840 ml/min.= 4730 ml/1840 = 2.57 min. to filter all oil in 5 qt sump 60 psi. through my BYPASS.

Since this is a 1/8" line and my oil filter threads are 3/4", the area of a 1/8" circle is 0.0123; and the area of a 3/4" output is 0.4418. .4418 divided by 0.0123 = 35.91

1840 ml/min X 35.91 = 66,074 ml/min estimate for entire output. 66,074/4730 = 13.96 seconds for 5 quarts volume. All my oil is filtered every 13.96 seconds, or a little over 4 times per minute.

My rough but actual sample testing pretty much agrees with goodtimes saying 4 times a minute for all the oil to circulate through the system. Of course the engine was at full equilibrium operating temperature. That is my daughter's hand with a rag over the very warm beaker while dad photographs for posterity. Yes, the engine has been shut off, but only seconds ago.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
My rough but actual sample testing pretty much agrees with goodtimes saying 4 times a minute for all the oil to circulate through the system.


He was implying the filtering of the sump's 5 quart volume 4 times every minute (total of 20 quarts in 1 minute = 5 GPM) at start-up/idle engine speed ... not at 2000+ RPM.

Typically a high performance V8 will pump ~10 GPM at 6000 RPM - smaller and lower performance engines might be somewhat less. If the pump is in good shape, then the pump output will be close to linear and will give ~5 GPM at 3000 RPM. You came up with 4.3 GPM at 2000 RPM which is within reason based on your assumptions.

So, yes at some pretty good highway speeds (say 2500~3000 RPM) the sump of 5 qts would get filtered ~4 times every minute ... but certainly not at an idle. That would be more like 1.3 GPM which would mean ~5 qts every 1 minute at idle.

 

[goodtimes]

I did correct what I said first, although actually it is probably pretty correct. When I had a car with an oil pressure gauge it would go right up to the max at start up cold, like 60 psi. So the flow should be about 5 gpm, as a general estimate. When I change oil I let it drain as long as possible, over night if possible. At least a few hours. Not a hot idle start.
That's a pretty fancy bypass set up, always wondered how that return through the valve cover worked. Pretty well it seems like. That is a lot of oil passing through an 1/8 orifice, good to see an actual real world test.

 

[ZeeOSix]

No car pumps 5 GPM of oil at idle. Well, maybe a 3000 HP top fuel dragster does. The oil pressure with cold oil will be pretty high even with low oil flow going on, as the indicated pressure is a function of viscosity, flow volume and resistance of the oiling system. High performance street cars typically will flow 1~1.5 GPM at idle speed, and the oil pressure will be high because of the thick oil at cold start-up.

The flow through his bypass filter is determined by the flow resistance of the filter itself, not the 1/8" hose. A 1/8" ID hose can flow way more oil then you would think. If he removed the bypass filter and just had the 1/8" hose, the flow rate through it would probably be higher than what he measured.

 

[goodtimes]

Need to bring out my usual visual aid.

Like I said before, my engine starts cold or near cold after an oil change. It flairs right up to 1500 rpm. I use 0w or 5w-30 depending on the car. I live in a moderate climate. I don't remember talking about flow at hot idle only. Not talking about hot idle flow only and exact GPM. Talking about oil being filtered, and run through the engine, a lot more times/min than most people realize. As far as I remember on bypass filters, yes the orifice, 1/8" in his case, is the restrictor. They do it on purpose so as not to take away too much of the flow from the main circuit.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Well, even at 1500 RPM it isn't going to flow at 5 GPM. If it did, it would be flowing ~20 GPM at 6000 RPM and that's just not possible on a typical street car. The flow volume of the oil going through the filter/engine is dependent on the engine RPM, unless the pump is in pressure relief, which it isn't at 1500 RPM. Just trying to put some reality into the conversation.

 

[dew]

I'm either changing it every oil change or every other. E.g. with a Fram ultra I go 20k, with a TG I go 10k.

Don't care to get dirty unless I'm already changing the oil.

 

[Rodmiser]

A 2015 Jetta TDI. I'm thinking every other at 200000 miles. I have a drain plug on the filter. right or wrong????

 

[funflyer]

Originally Posted By: Rodmiser
A 2015 Jetta TDI. I'm thinking every other at 200000 miles. I have a drain plug on the filter. right or wrong????



Why not just change in conjunction with the turbo. If they're anything like the previous models that should be well before 100k