E30 running good in non Flex Fuel vehicle

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For 2 weeks I have been slowly increasing the amount of E30 in my 96 Grand Marquis it seems to have better low end torque yet at higher speeds and Full Throttle there is some unusual engine sensation almost a mess but not exactly a mess not sure what the issue is saving about 50 to $0.75 per gallon depending on normal gas prices fuel efficiency seems to be less than 10% lower sometimes it is equal I am driving about 300 mile round-trip each day using more than 10 gallons so this cost savings cruise to be significant Advantage for me
 
I've gone up to about 30% in my Cobalt as well without any ill effects. However with the prices as they are in my part of the country it actually made cost per mile increase, so I'm back to standard E10.
 
Originally Posted By: spk2000
For 2 weeks


You do understand that a mere 2 weeks isn't enough time for any longer term effects to manifest themselves, correct? While I have no issue running E10 in anything I own and would have no issues with any blend of ethanol in something designed for it, your 2 decade old car wasn't designed with E30 in mind at all.
 
If it was a 98 there would be no issues, they used a Newer style plastic body Bosch injector with SS internals. The 96 used the old metal body Bosch with a pintel, no SS internals.
This is a problem waiting to happen, corrosion can be a real issue with these using higher ethanol content fuels.

BTW some of the 98 with the plastic bodied units can take E85. Your metal ones are E10 MAX.
 
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Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Originally Posted By: spk2000
For 2 weeks


You do understand that a mere 2 weeks isn't enough time for any longer term effects to manifest themselves, correct? While I have no issue running E10 in anything I own and would have no issues with any blend of ethanol in something designed for it, your 2 decade old car wasn't designed with E30 in mind at all.


His 2 weeks isn't a normal person's two weeks. He say he is driving 300 miles per day, so assuming working days, he has driven 3000 miles in the last two weeks.

Still a small data point but it's not only a couple hundred miles and it doesn't take into account for long term material degradation.

Originally Posted By: Trav
If it was a 98 there would be no issues, they used a Newer style plastic body Bosch injector with SS internals. The 96 used the old metal body Bosch with a pintel, no SS internals.
This is a problem waiting to happen, corrosion can be a real issue with these using higher ethanol content fuels.

BTW some of the 98 with the plastic bodied units can take E85. Your metal ones are E10 MAX.


Can someone simply swap injectors? Or were there plug/fitment differences too?
 
Sure that's no problem. The 98 uses the same EV1 connector as the 96, both are 19-21 lb and saturated (high ohm). They may or may not need some work to fit the rails if clips are used
Injector connector adapters are available for different connectors as well as modified bodies with connectors are also available.
 
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Sounds like it's time to hit up a junk yard for some insurance that the injectors shouldn't fail.
 
Just make sure they are wet when they are taken out and either clean them or get them cleaned.
If the fuel rail on the newer car has the same fittings and mounting points in the same location but a slightly different shape grab the whole rail.
 
I'd almost be willing to try it in my car, if anyone around here sold anything other than E10. but they don't. heck, the nearest E85 Pump is about 45min away.
 
If you want to save money, perhaps trade your V8 engine car in for a 4 cyl commuter car.

300 mile commute every day with a V8 makes no sense.
 
It's not just injectors that suffer with higher than 10% ethanol mixtures. It's the fuel system seals as well. And the pump. And the fuel rail. And the fuel tank. Well, basically anything touched by the fuel.
 
I should add that my car like premium fuel. I get slight octane ping when using regular under load or heavy acceleration. Thanks for letting me know about the seal and fuel system incompatibility. I will do some more research. This is a short term commute. I took a new job and letting kids finish school before moving in a month. Been doing this rung for 6 weeks now. Looking to save some gas money but not worth risking the fuel system. I have no affiliation with the corn growers. I have tried growing my own sweet corn in garden with little success. I actually hated ethanol blends as I know they do have less energy and you are basically add "oxygen" to your fuel that normally would come from the air. This may be why at heavy throttle or high speeds like 85-90 I getting a feeling that engine is cavitating.
 
Most or all of the Meijers in this area have fuel stations that offer E85.
I'm tempted to try a bit of it in one of our older cars, but then I wonder what troubles I might be courting.
Gas is cheap enough currently that I don't think that the small potential reduction in fuel cost per mile is worth the unknown potential risks.
Trav pointed out one such risk.
 
I was involved with some testing some years ago when the state wanted to use higher ethanol fuels. Some older Crown Vic's were in the group.
The older ones with metal body injectors were barely E10 compatible but the plastic ones were okay with E20 and E30. Ford did use viton O rings, there were no issues with the pumps, tanks, pressure regulator or rails up to and inc E30 there were a few fuel sender issues. None could run E85.

Some of the mid-late 2000 cars use the same plastic body injectors and can indeed run E85 they have enough headroom and the ecm does recognize the E85 parameters and adjust the A/F automatically the older care do not. Some of these are in fact flex fuel just not labeled flex fuel.
Corrosion is not the only issue, E85 may need a higher volume pump, larger lines and injectors and an ecm tune. Plastic fuel tanks are preferred but steel seems to work well enough with no real corrosion issues.

Not every make or model can run anything higher than E10. Based on the limited testing I wouldn't advocate using anything with more than that but it can be done.
Some older European cars could run the very corrosive M85 but they were built with materials that are compatible with it so they could easily use E85, good luck trying to find out which models they were though.
 
Based on my running various blends of ethanol thru my pickup, i have settled on E15 as being the best value on a cost per mile basis. At least at the current price ratios. I can get E10, E15, E20, E30, and E85 around my area. With gasoline overall being much lower than a few years ago, the variance and value doesn't leave much wiggle room. The Commodity Market price for gasoline and ethanol is pretty close. A couple of years ago, E85 was the best value on a cost per mile basis by far.
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Based on my running various blends of ethanol thru my pickup, i have settled on E15 as being the best value on a cost per mile basis. At least at the current price ratios. I can get E10, E15, E20, E30, and E85 around my area. With gasoline overall being much lower than a few years ago, the variance and value doesn't leave much wiggle room. The Commodity Market price for gasoline and ethanol is pretty close. A couple of years ago, E85 was the best value on a cost per mile basis by far.


TT,
I am wondering how you figure your actual cost of the ethanol fuel vs EO, In terms of per gallon comparison at the pump based on the energy loss expected.
 
Because I have run several tanks of each of the various blends thru my vehicles and have a good working relationship of the fuel economy I get from each fuel. I then just use that info in relation to the pump prices and use what would offer the best value on a cost per mile basis. I don't even consider the dweeb sheets on what energy loss should be. There is more to the picture than just energy loss. For instance, the engine designer Ricardo has taken a 3.2L GM V6, modified the guts and boosted it up, and it can get the same fuel economy and power as the 6.6L Dmax diesel, but using E85 fuel. Cummins has done the same thing with a 2.8L E85 motor that is getting ready for actual production use in some commercial vans. There are characteristics to ethanol that allows for some interesting things when the engines are designed primarily for it and not an afterthought like the current crop of flex fuel engines. Even on my 6.0L Vortec, the ECM reads the sensor for ethanol content and can advance timing to take advantage of the ethanol. It is not a straight across the board deal regarding lower energy content of ethanol vs gasoline and subsequent lower fuel economy. There is a fuel economy loss, in general, but not always. I have not experienced any appreciable difference in fuel economy between E10, E15, and E20. But, prices can vary quite a bit making one more cost effective on a per mile basis. Right now, it is E15. E0, I can pull off 1 mpg better, but the cost is so prohibitive to make it worth it. E85, I do take a hit, and the price spread has to be pretty big to make it worthwhile.
 
thanks, i understand what you are saying and appreciate your sharing your experience.

In my case, i drive older vehicles, that is why I was asking about ethanol vs E0 comparison.

Does anyone else fall in this situation and how do you figure your actual cost of ethanol fuel (say E10) vs E0 when you are at the pump and deciding what to use. That is if you try and figure your actual cost based on energy loss expected.
 
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