well [censored] , Mobil 1 is not going to discuss the property that caused them to fail the new test. And I have not found the testing protocol anywhere.
Favorite BMW LL-01 oil
- Thread starter cadfaeltex
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So Castrol must meet the more stringent N20 turbo test while old Mobil 1 doesnt. Wasn't M1 0w40 the darling oil here that could do nothing wrong. There was a good reason why at my speed shops we see higher wear in engines run on M1 0w40 which also doubled as race cars in the summer 
. This is why I always say choose oil not by what you see on PDS or MSDS or UOAs or VOAs but how the engine tear down looks.
Flame suit on!
. This is why I always say choose oil not by what you see on PDS or MSDS or UOAs or VOAs but how the engine tear down looks.Flame suit on!
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: MCompact
Correspondence with Mobil- from bimmerfest.com(3/16/16):
My message:
I have a question about the European Formula Mobil 1 FS 0w-40 engine oil. I have noticed that recently the packaging has changed and LL01 certification was dropped. The name has changed as well to Mobil 1 FS 0W-40. What is the difference between Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 and Mobil 1 0W-40? What does FS stands for? Is there a difference in the chemistry between the two?
Reply:
Yes, we did recently introduce a new formulation, along with a new product name to differentiate the two. One assumes FS is just short for Full Synthetic. Performance of the new recipe is very comparable to the outgoing product.
At the same time, BMW had modified the testing requirement for the LL-01 spec – adding of a more severe N20 2liter turbo test that, apparently, we do not yet meet.
My Followup Message:
Thank you for such a prompt reply. Does the "FS" version of 0W-40 still comply with the old LL-01 standard? In other words am I safe using the new formulation with BMW N62TU Engine (550i 2010)?
And the reply:
Yes, since the new M1 FS 0W-40 did not lose any performance relative to the previous version, it will continue to provide similar (if not slightly improved) performance in your model.
Based on the above I'll continue to use M1 0W-40 in the ti and X3. When the 2er is out of warranty I'll re-evaluate what I'll use.
Thanks for the info! I wonder what this N20 test is?? Does it have anything to do with the start/stop function of the motor?
I also wonder if other brands have not needed to remove the LL-01 cert because they havent re-formulated. Meaning the new 0w40 FS is "new" so it had to be retested?
Correspondence with Mobil- from bimmerfest.com(3/16/16):
My message:
I have a question about the European Formula Mobil 1 FS 0w-40 engine oil. I have noticed that recently the packaging has changed and LL01 certification was dropped. The name has changed as well to Mobil 1 FS 0W-40. What is the difference between Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 and Mobil 1 0W-40? What does FS stands for? Is there a difference in the chemistry between the two?
Reply:
Yes, we did recently introduce a new formulation, along with a new product name to differentiate the two. One assumes FS is just short for Full Synthetic. Performance of the new recipe is very comparable to the outgoing product.
At the same time, BMW had modified the testing requirement for the LL-01 spec – adding of a more severe N20 2liter turbo test that, apparently, we do not yet meet.
My Followup Message:
Thank you for such a prompt reply. Does the "FS" version of 0W-40 still comply with the old LL-01 standard? In other words am I safe using the new formulation with BMW N62TU Engine (550i 2010)?
And the reply:
Yes, since the new M1 FS 0W-40 did not lose any performance relative to the previous version, it will continue to provide similar (if not slightly improved) performance in your model.
Based on the above I'll continue to use M1 0W-40 in the ti and X3. When the 2er is out of warranty I'll re-evaluate what I'll use.
Thanks for the info! I wonder what this N20 test is?? Does it have anything to do with the start/stop function of the motor?
I also wonder if other brands have not needed to remove the LL-01 cert because they havent re-formulated. Meaning the new 0w40 FS is "new" so it had to be retested?
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Originally Posted By: MCompact
One assumes FS is just short for Full Synthetic.
I doubt it. If that was the case, does that mean all the other M1 grades are not full synthetic?
When I asked XOM that question, they said this:
Quote:
I've had a chance to hear back from a Brand Advisor, indicating that the FS designation does not refer to Full Synthetic, and that, "It is an internal designation to differentiate products in other markets with different claim profile." My previous source appears to have been anecdotal.
We have had a long discussion trying to guess what FS really stands for. Some think it stands for "Full SAPS". Others think it may stand for "Fuel Saving".
As far as the N20 test, according to Afton, that test was added back in 2012, so I'm not sure why only now this is becoming an issue for XOM, unless this N20 test was very recently revised.
One assumes FS is just short for Full Synthetic.
I doubt it. If that was the case, does that mean all the other M1 grades are not full synthetic?
When I asked XOM that question, they said this:
Quote:
I've had a chance to hear back from a Brand Advisor, indicating that the FS designation does not refer to Full Synthetic, and that, "It is an internal designation to differentiate products in other markets with different claim profile." My previous source appears to have been anecdotal.
We have had a long discussion trying to guess what FS really stands for. Some think it stands for "Full SAPS". Others think it may stand for "Fuel Saving".
As far as the N20 test, according to Afton, that test was added back in 2012, so I'm not sure why only now this is becoming an issue for XOM, unless this N20 test was very recently revised.
That supposed conversation with ExxonMobil posted to Bimmerfest is hugely atypical for the company. I've never, ever seen any discussion with them that ever divulged technical information like is in that post. Either it's made up or the person happened to hit the one rep that knows details.
Originally Posted By: deven
So Castrol must meet the more stringent N20 turbo test while old Mobil 1 doesnt. Wasn't M1 0w40 the darling oil here that could do nothing wrong. There was a good reason why at my speed shops we see higher wear in engines run on M1 0w40 which also doubled as race cars in the summer. This is why I always say choose oil not by what you see on PDS or MSDS or UOAs or VOAs but how the engine tear down looks.
Flame suit on!
Hey now.. If you bash a site sponsor, particularly Mobil, you're going to get banned.
So Castrol must meet the more stringent N20 turbo test while old Mobil 1 doesnt. Wasn't M1 0w40 the darling oil here that could do nothing wrong. There was a good reason why at my speed shops we see higher wear in engines run on M1 0w40 which also doubled as race cars in the summer
. This is why I always say choose oil not by what you see on PDS or MSDS or UOAs or VOAs but how the engine tear down looks.Flame suit on!
Hey now.. If you bash a site sponsor, particularly Mobil, you're going to get banned.
Here is some information you might find useful
Quote:
3.2.1 "BMW Longlife-01" (LL-01)
3.2.2. "BMW Longlife-01 FE" (LL-01 FE)
3.2.3 "BMW Longlife-04" (LL-04)
3.2.4 "BMW Longlife-12 FE" (LL-12 FE)
3.2.5 "BMW Longlife-14 FE+" (LL-14 FE+)
Quote:
3.2.1 "BMW Longlife-01" (LL-01)
- This quality is the minimum requirement for all BMW gasoline engines from model year 2002 and for BMW diesel engines without particulate filters from model year 2003.
- All older BMW engines can use this quality.
- To avoid customer irritation, no product names containing the word "diesel" are permitted.
- For BMW M GmbH engines, this quality is only permitted in new, designated models with S55 or S63 engines.
3.2.2. "BMW Longlife-01 FE" (LL-01 FE)
- Due to the lower HTHS viscosity in comparison with the BMW Longlife-01 specification, these
oils may only be used for the BMW gasoline engines released for this oil. At present, these
include all current gasoline engines (N1x, N2x, N4x, N5x, N63, N74, Bx8). - For BMW M GmbH engines, this quality is only permitted in new, designated models with S55 or
S63 engines.
3.2.3 "BMW Longlife-04" (LL-04)
- These oils are permitted for all BMW diesel engines with or without particulate filters.
- This quality also applies to BMW gasoline engines. Release is currently limited to the EU
including Norway, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. - For BMW M GmbH engines, this quality is only permitted in new, designated models with S55 or
S63 engines within the EU and also in Norway, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein.
3.2.4 "BMW Longlife-12 FE" (LL-12 FE)
- Due to the reduced HTHS viscosity in comparison to the BMW Longlife-04 specification, these
oils may only be used for the BMW diesel and gasoline engines released for this oil. - Oils of the specification BMW Longlife-12 FE are also suitable for BMW diesel engines as of
model year 2014 with no more than 1 turbocharger. For engines with 2 or more turbochargers
(4-cylinder diesel engines with power exceeding 140kW or 6-cylinder diesel engines with power
exceeding 195kW) BMW Longlife-04 specification engine oils must continue to be used! In
general, BMW Longlife-12 FE must not be used for model X6 (E71). - Detailed information is visible for BMW dealers / workshops via WebISTA or BMW-OSS.
- This quality can also be used for BMW gasoline engines as of model year 2002. Release is
currently limited to the EU including Norway, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. - For BMW M GmbH engines, this quality is only permitted in new, designated models with S55 or
S63 engines within the EU and also in Norway, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein.
3.2.5 "BMW Longlife-14 FE+" (LL-14 FE+)
- Due to the low HTHS viscosity of 2.6 mPa·s, these oils may only be used in the BMW gasoline
engines released for them. - These oils are only suitable for new N20 and Bx8 gasoline engines from model year 2014.
- Release is currently restricted to the EU, Norway, Switzerland and Liechtenstein, and the US
market and Canada. - This quality is not permitted for BMW M GmbH engines.
Originally Posted By: HemiHawk
Thanks for the info! I wonder what this N20 test is?? Does it have anything to do with the start/stop function of the motor?
I also wonder if other brands have not needed to remove the LL-01 cert because they havent re-formulated. Meaning the new 0w40 FS is "new" so it had to be retested?
For the N20 performance test, it evaluates Piston cleanliness, engine cleanliness, oil aging and protection against wear by running the oil through a series of engine sequences in a BMW N20 engine.
They run the oil through a series of engine cycles, topping up the engine with new oil as needed, then partway through they change the oil and then run several more cycles with no extra top up. At the end of the test they look at overal engine cleanliness (oil pan, heat exchanger, cylinder head, cylinder head cover, pistons, rings, the turbocharger and an oil analysis) to see how well the oil stood up under service.
Thanks for the info! I wonder what this N20 test is?? Does it have anything to do with the start/stop function of the motor?
I also wonder if other brands have not needed to remove the LL-01 cert because they havent re-formulated. Meaning the new 0w40 FS is "new" so it had to be retested?
For the N20 performance test, it evaluates Piston cleanliness, engine cleanliness, oil aging and protection against wear by running the oil through a series of engine sequences in a BMW N20 engine.
They run the oil through a series of engine cycles, topping up the engine with new oil as needed, then partway through they change the oil and then run several more cycles with no extra top up. At the end of the test they look at overal engine cleanliness (oil pan, heat exchanger, cylinder head, cylinder head cover, pistons, rings, the turbocharger and an oil analysis) to see how well the oil stood up under service.
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
This is very interesting. My fiance's Mini Cooper with the N16 engine calls for LL-01 oil (just out of warranty). I plan to use Redline 5W-30. While not officially "certified", the specs appear far better than M1 and Castrol.
I've used it in my MINIs and it's a good oil. I was impressed with the results Overkill got with RL.
This is very interesting. My fiance's Mini Cooper with the N16 engine calls for LL-01 oil (just out of warranty). I plan to use Redline 5W-30. While not officially "certified", the specs appear far better than M1 and Castrol.
I've used it in my MINIs and it's a good oil. I was impressed with the results Overkill got with RL.
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
This is very interesting. My fiance's Mini Cooper with the N16 engine calls for LL-01 oil (just out of warranty). I plan to use Redline 5W-30. While not officially "certified", the specs appear far better than M1 and Castrol.
Which specs as related to the requirements of Longlife-01?
This is very interesting. My fiance's Mini Cooper with the N16 engine calls for LL-01 oil (just out of warranty). I plan to use Redline 5W-30. While not officially "certified", the specs appear far better than M1 and Castrol.
Which specs as related to the requirements of Longlife-01?
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
This is very interesting. My fiance's Mini Cooper with the N16 engine calls for LL-01 oil (just out of warranty). I plan to use Redline 5W-30. While not officially "certified", the specs appear far better than M1 and Castrol.
Which specs as related to the requirements of Longlife-01?
I never said specific LL-01 specs. I was talking general oil specs, specifically: HTHS, NOACK, cold flow/pour point are far ahead of M1 and Castrol. It's also an ester based oil, which requires less VIIs... will stay in grade longer.
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
This is very interesting. My fiance's Mini Cooper with the N16 engine calls for LL-01 oil (just out of warranty). I plan to use Redline 5W-30. While not officially "certified", the specs appear far better than M1 and Castrol.
Which specs as related to the requirements of Longlife-01?
I never said specific LL-01 specs. I was talking general oil specs, specifically: HTHS, NOACK, cold flow/pour point are far ahead of M1 and Castrol. It's also an ester based oil, which requires less VIIs... will stay in grade longer.
I'm amazed Mobil have freely given out that information to the public.
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
This is very interesting. My fiance's Mini Cooper with the N16 engine calls for LL-01 oil (just out of warranty). I plan to use Redline 5W-30. While not officially "certified", the specs appear far better than M1 and Castrol.
Which specs as related to the requirements of Longlife-01?
I never said specific LL-01 specs. I was talking general oil specs, specifically: HTHS, NOACK, cold flow/pour point are far ahead of M1 and Castrol. It's also an ester based oil, which requires less VIIs... will stay in grade longer.
Who gives a [censored] about random data points if the oil can't pass Test developed by those who develop engines ?!? Honestly I get fed up read this [censored] about esters and shear stability. Does it really matter if the oil ends up at 11 or 10 cst. The way you drive it and corresponding fuel dilution has a far greater effect on viscosity
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
This is very interesting. My fiance's Mini Cooper with the N16 engine calls for LL-01 oil (just out of warranty). I plan to use Redline 5W-30. While not officially "certified", the specs appear far better than M1 and Castrol.
Which specs as related to the requirements of Longlife-01?
I never said specific LL-01 specs. I was talking general oil specs, specifically: HTHS, NOACK, cold flow/pour point are far ahead of M1 and Castrol. It's also an ester based oil, which requires less VIIs... will stay in grade longer.
Who gives a [censored] about random data points if the oil can't pass Test developed by those who develop engines ?!? Honestly I get fed up read this [censored] about esters and shear stability. Does it really matter if the oil ends up at 11 or 10 cst. The way you drive it and corresponding fuel dilution has a far greater effect on viscosity
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
This is very interesting. My fiance's Mini Cooper with the N16 engine calls for LL-01 oil (just out of warranty). I plan to use Redline 5W-30. While not officially "certified", the specs appear far better than M1 and Castrol.
Which specs as related to the requirements of Longlife-01?
I never said specific LL-01 specs. I was talking general oil specs, specifically: HTHS, NOACK, cold flow/pour point are far ahead of M1 and Castrol. It's also an ester based oil, which requires less VIIs... will stay in grade longer.
Who gives a [censored] about random data points if the oil can't pass Test developed by those who develop engines ?!? Honestly I get fed up read this [censored] about esters and shear stability. Does it really matter if the oil ends up at 11 or 10 cst. The way you drive it and corresponding fuel dilution has a far greater effect on viscosity
I agree with this. Pass the sequence testing required by the manufacturer. Everything else is just Marketing speak.
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
This is very interesting. My fiance's Mini Cooper with the N16 engine calls for LL-01 oil (just out of warranty). I plan to use Redline 5W-30. While not officially "certified", the specs appear far better than M1 and Castrol.
Which specs as related to the requirements of Longlife-01?
I never said specific LL-01 specs. I was talking general oil specs, specifically: HTHS, NOACK, cold flow/pour point are far ahead of M1 and Castrol. It's also an ester based oil, which requires less VIIs... will stay in grade longer.
Who gives a [censored] about random data points if the oil can't pass Test developed by those who develop engines ?!? Honestly I get fed up read this [censored] about esters and shear stability. Does it really matter if the oil ends up at 11 or 10 cst. The way you drive it and corresponding fuel dilution has a far greater effect on viscosity
I agree with this. Pass the sequence testing required by the manufacturer. Everything else is just Marketing speak.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Who gives a [censored] about random data points if the oil can't pass Test developed by those who develop engines ?!? Honestly I get fed up read this [censored] about esters and shear stability. Does it really matter if the oil ends up at 11 or 10 cst. The way you drive it and corresponding fuel dilution has a far greater effect on viscosity
Jeez man settle down; you can keep using whatever oil you like.
IMO, you get what you pay for, more or less, and there is a reason oils like Motul and Redline are so expensive. Esters are superior, but you pay for it. I'm OK with this for a car that only holds 4.2 liters of oil and will get an annual oil change; my X5 that holds 8 liters will not be getting Redline.
As far as certs go, Redline doesn't pursue certifications, so I wouldn't say it doesn't pass.
Carry on. We are all just stating our opinions here.
Who gives a [censored] about random data points if the oil can't pass Test developed by those who develop engines ?!? Honestly I get fed up read this [censored] about esters and shear stability. Does it really matter if the oil ends up at 11 or 10 cst. The way you drive it and corresponding fuel dilution has a far greater effect on viscosity
Jeez man settle down; you can keep using whatever oil you like.
IMO, you get what you pay for, more or less, and there is a reason oils like Motul and Redline are so expensive. Esters are superior, but you pay for it. I'm OK with this for a car that only holds 4.2 liters of oil and will get an annual oil change; my X5 that holds 8 liters will not be getting Redline.
As far as certs go, Redline doesn't pursue certifications, so I wouldn't say it doesn't pass.
Carry on. We are all just stating our opinions here.
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Quote:
At the same time, BMW had modified the testing requirement for the LL-01 spec – adding of a more severe N20 2liter turbo test that, apparently, we do not yet meet.
It sounds like Mobil has not tested against it yet. More of a timing issue not that it failed it.
At the same time, BMW had modified the testing requirement for the LL-01 spec – adding of a more severe N20 2liter turbo test that, apparently, we do not yet meet.
It sounds like Mobil has not tested against it yet. More of a timing issue not that it failed it.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
This is very interesting. My fiance's Mini Cooper with the N16 engine calls for LL-01 oil (just out of warranty). I plan to use Redline 5W-30. While not officially "certified", the specs appear far better than M1 and Castrol.
Which specs as related to the requirements of Longlife-01?
I never said specific LL-01 specs. I was talking general oil specs, specifically: HTHS, NOACK, cold flow/pour point are far ahead of M1 and Castrol. It's also an ester based oil, which requires less VIIs... will stay in grade longer.
Who gives a [censored] about random data points if the oil can't pass Test developed by those who develop engines ?!? Honestly I get fed up read this [censored] about esters and shear stability. Does it really matter if the oil ends up at 11 or 10 cst. The way you drive it and corresponding fuel dilution has a far greater effect on viscosity
+1 Agree.
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
This is very interesting. My fiance's Mini Cooper with the N16 engine calls for LL-01 oil (just out of warranty). I plan to use Redline 5W-30. While not officially "certified", the specs appear far better than M1 and Castrol.
Which specs as related to the requirements of Longlife-01?
I never said specific LL-01 specs. I was talking general oil specs, specifically: HTHS, NOACK, cold flow/pour point are far ahead of M1 and Castrol. It's also an ester based oil, which requires less VIIs... will stay in grade longer.
Who gives a [censored] about random data points if the oil can't pass Test developed by those who develop engines ?!? Honestly I get fed up read this [censored] about esters and shear stability. Does it really matter if the oil ends up at 11 or 10 cst. The way you drive it and corresponding fuel dilution has a far greater effect on viscosity
+1 Agree.
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
I agree with this. Pass the sequence testing required by the manufacturer. Everything else is just Marketing speak.
I'd also add that the BMW certification process is not easy nor cheap. SO just because an oil has some good physical properties does not mean it will stand up to the required testing.
One thing I have learned about dealing with OEM certifications, they each require some unique and expensive tests - in addition to charging licensing fees and in some cases royalties. This makes it hard to get a single oil that is on the official list of a long group of OEMs. and in some cases the certifications of one OEM make it impossible to meet those of another.
The more complex new engine designs get - the more complex the oils that service them will be. I attended a conference recently where Lubrizol hypothesized that within 20 years engine oil will no longer be an interchangeable part - but specifically engineered to be matched only with the equipment it was designed to work with.
I agree with this. Pass the sequence testing required by the manufacturer. Everything else is just Marketing speak.
I'd also add that the BMW certification process is not easy nor cheap. SO just because an oil has some good physical properties does not mean it will stand up to the required testing.
One thing I have learned about dealing with OEM certifications, they each require some unique and expensive tests - in addition to charging licensing fees and in some cases royalties. This makes it hard to get a single oil that is on the official list of a long group of OEMs. and in some cases the certifications of one OEM make it impossible to meet those of another.
The more complex new engine designs get - the more complex the oils that service them will be. I attended a conference recently where Lubrizol hypothesized that within 20 years engine oil will no longer be an interchangeable part - but specifically engineered to be matched only with the equipment it was designed to work with.
Originally Posted By: Solarent
I'd also add that the BMW certification process is not easy nor cheap. SO just because an oil has some good physical properties does not mean it will stand up to the required testing.
Or just some chemical constituents that are popularly considered to be superior.
I'd also add that the BMW certification process is not easy nor cheap. SO just because an oil has some good physical properties does not mean it will stand up to the required testing.
Or just some chemical constituents that are popularly considered to be superior.
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