First Time Gun Owner - Question

[Al]

Originally Posted By: Skeet6

PS: and please stop using "shotie" - it makes me want to kick puppies.


Then go kick puppies if you don't like it.

 

[GMFan]

As others have said a locked up and unloaded gun is useless for home defense. Have you ever tried to load cartridges into a pistol magazine very quickly? How about after an adrenaline dump when someone is either in your house or attempting to get inside after startling you awake at 3am? So maybe you will leave loaded magazine in the safe next to the empty gun. In that case, why not just keep it loaded anyway? How about if you wake up and someone is already in your bedroom. We had a family friend who lived in a bad neighborhood and armed robberies took place every other week. She woke up one night to an intruder in her bedroom who fortunately continued to think she was asleep as she lay watching him. A quality biometric safe within arms reach can get you access to a loaded firearm in about 1 second flat.

With kids in the house your best bet is to keep a loaded handgun in a biometric fingerprint safe fixed mounted to something sturdy. I saw a couple of really nice ones at Cabelas this weekend on sale for under $200.

While a shotgun is arguable the best self defense weapon in the home to hold a doorway clear it is far more unwieldy to secure and get access to it loaded if there are little critters in your house.

 

[Ws6]

Everyone has an opinion on HD weapons. I prefer an M4. Why? I can suppress it (ever shot a weapon in a confined space...). I have 30 rounds. I find they are easier to mount a light on, ergonomically (YMMV based on setup, I had an M1014). For moving, I prefer a pistol, because I can open doors with it, I can use my other hand for a light (in addition to the one mounted on the pistol), or a cellphone, etc.

That said, I would never, and never would I advocate, clearing your own home. Call the police and lay down a fatal funnel.

That said...OP has kids...and if you are in one part of the house, and you think a perp is between you or your kids, sometimes you have to engage in "bad decision making" and go clear towards your kids. It's just how people operate, I am told (Not into kids, myself). However, every person who has 'em that I've talked to,even after doing CQB simunition training and seeing how easy it is to get shot clearing a house by your self, says they would risk it to get to those kids. SO...there's that to consider.

 

[bubbatime]

Watch these two very good videos by someone that knows what he is talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHeqbBfVwTM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuNiPbtc02g

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
How many small children can figure out the safety systems on a 1911 without help, or have the strength to work the slide? A revolver, on the other hand, is just too easy to work.


Cool story. I'm not sure what it has to do with the topic at hand??? The OP has already stated he is getting training and locking up the firearms, so I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what the safety's on a 1911 or lack thereof on a revolver has anything to do with this post.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: Kawiguy454
Always keep feed tube loaded and a round not racked. I guarantee if some tweaked up crack clown starts messing with your window or door his highly tuned criminal sonar will detect the distinctive sound a pump makes when you rack a round with authority. ...he will turn around and live another day. And you wont have a mess on your hands.


Why give up your tactical advantage? Isn't the idea of owning defensive firearms so that in the very unlikely instance that you may need them, you hopefully have the upper hand and can defend yourself and live another day?

Racking an empty shotgun tells the perp where you are, and tells them that you armed with a pump shotgun. Maybe they might start instantly shooting at you if they have a gun? I'd rather use proper tactics and bring a fully loaded gun to a gun fight, and not announce my position, giving him time to ambush you. It's your home, YOU should be the one setting up the ambush and the perp shouldn't know where you are until 9 pellets of buckshot are impacting his face.

 

[bubbatime]

Everyone always says just get a pump shotgun. Is that good advice? Maybe, maybe not. Out of handguns, rifles, and shotguns, the pump shotgun is the hardest to master. It takes the most training to master. It takes the most training to become absolutely proficient with. Every Tom and Larry just thinks you can hand the wife an 870 and she will instantly be safe from an intruder. Not so. The gun is a tool while the real weapon is the person, and if the person doesn't have the skill set, ability, or willingness to pull the trigger, than they are not a very effective weapon.

So OP, go ahead and take that defensive shotgun class. It's a good start.

The Remington 870 is a good gun. I'm heavily invested in the 870 having been trained on one and as an armorer on one. Its a great, effective combat shotgun. Yes the quality has gone down hill a bit lately, but that can be fixed with by a person that knows the usual 870 fixes (polish the chamber, replace the mim extractor, etc)

If I was in your shoes and not invested/trained on the 870, I would SERIOUSLY look at the Benelli Nova and Super Nova pump shotguns. They are they best built and highest quality pump shotguns on the market.

And just to add another 2 cents, if you are willing to spend the money, the best combat shotgun on the market is the Benelli M2 or M4. Its an amazing weapon, although expensive as all get out.

And just to add another 2 cents, if you want the absolute best home defense weapon that you can get, than start looking at a semi auto magazine fed rifle such as an AR-15, mini-14, AK, etc.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Everyone always says just get a pump shotgun. Is that good advice? Maybe, maybe not. Out of handguns, rifles, and shotguns, the pump shotgun is the hardest to master. It takes the most training to master. It takes the most training to become absolutely proficient with. Every Tom and Larry just thinks you can hand the wife an 870 and she will instantly be safe from an intruder. Not so. The gun is a tool while the real weapon is the person, and if the person doesn't have the skill set, ability, or willingness to pull the trigger, than they are not a very effective weapon.

So OP, go ahead and take that defensive shotgun class. It's a good start.

The Remington 870 is a good gun. I'm heavily invested in the 870 having been trained on one and as an armorer on one. Its a great, effective combat shotgun. Yes the quality has gone down hill a bit lately, but that can be fixed with by a person that knows the usual 870 fixes (polish the chamber, replace the mim extractor, etc)

If I was in your shoes and not invested/trained on the 870, I would SERIOUSLY look at the Benelli Nova and Super Nova pump shotguns. They are they best built and highest quality pump shotguns on the market.

And just to add another 2 cents, if you are willing to spend the money, the best combat shotgun on the market is the Benelli M2 or M4. Its an amazing weapon, although expensive as all get out.

And just to add another 2 cents, if you want the absolute best home defense weapon that you can get, than start looking at a semi auto magazine fed rifle such as an AR-15, mini-14, AK, etc.


SNT and magazine extension and a light make for a great pump, but as you stated, noone wants to TRAIN with them. [censored], even I have avoided training with them, and ended up selling my M4/M1014 clone. Why? It's loud. It cannot be suppressed. It only held 9 rounds. It was a pain to mount a light ergonomically.

A pump gun is even more of a beast to master, as you state. Add the human potential to short-stroke to the list of "issues" inherent to the thing.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: Kawiguy454
Always keep feed tube loaded and a round not racked. I guarantee if some tweaked up crack clown starts messing with your window or door his highly tuned criminal sonar will detect the distinctive sound a pump makes when you rack a round with authority. ...he will turn around and live another day. And you wont have a mess on your hands.


Why give up your tactical advantage? Isn't the idea of owning defensive firearms so that in the very unlikely instance that you may need them, you hopefully have the upper hand and can defend yourself and live another day?

Racking an empty shotgun tells the perp where you are, and tells them that you armed with a pump shotgun. Maybe they might start instantly shooting at you if they have a gun? I'd rather use proper tactics and bring a fully loaded gun to a gun fight, and not announce my position, giving him time to ambush you. It's your home, YOU should be the one setting up the ambush and the perp shouldn't know where you are until 9 pellets of buckshot are impacting his face.


I've asked a few officers about this specific situation (bullets through walls), and from what I understand, home-owners and criminals alike are seldom if ever putting bullets through walls, even though residential structures offer concealment rather than cover, typically.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: AZjeff
A locked up firearm, no matter what flavor, is no use at all for home protection. .


Not true....I have a 4200' home.....it takes several minutes to get to my bedroom when you know where you are going and the lights are on and the dog isn't freaking out and the ADT system isn't blaring.....with the lights out it will take you 3-4 minutes to get to me. At which point...it's a one way trip...........

from the time I awake.(dog)...you have 43 seconds before you are facing Mr Maverick 88..........BTW...my doggie smells the deer walking past the house at 3:00Am.....

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime

YOU should be the one setting up the ambush and the perp shouldn't know where you are until 9 pellets of buckshot are impacting his face.


I'm going to shoot him in his privates.....

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted By: Doog
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
A locked up firearm, no matter what flavor, is no use at all for home protection. .


Not true....I have a 4200' home.....it takes several minutes to get to my bedroom when you know where you are going and the lights are on and the dog isn't freaking out and the ADT system isn't blaring.....with the lights out it will take you 3-4 minutes to get to me. At which point...it's a one way trip...........

from the time I awake.(dog)...you have 43 seconds before you are facing Mr Maverick 88..........BTW...my doggie smells the deer walking past the house at 3:00Am.....



Just curious...what are your passions? 4200sq ft house and discount bin shotgun. I'm assuming cars? Pix would liven the thread!

That said, you listed a best-case scenario, not a worst-case scenario. IMO, if someone is breaking into your home and needs shooting, "best case" has already left the room and Mr. Murphy has replaced him.

Let's presume the dog is at the vet, the ADT system wasn't set because...who commits crime in your neighborhood, anyway, right? and you're jamming out to something on YouTube or whatever. Your wife/kid/you opened a window the other morning to get some crisp air, and did not lock it after closing it.

Perfect storm, I know, but I like having something handy, because a B&E/Home invasion isn't something I want to view as "best case scenario".

YMMV.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: Ws6

Just curious...what are your passions? 4200sq ft house and discount bin shotgun. I'm assuming cars? Pix would liven the thread! I like having something handy, because a B&E/Home invasion isn't something I want to view as "best case scenario".

YMMV.

Pretty much

 

[AZjeff]

Originally Posted By: Ws6
Everyone has an opinion on HD weapons. I prefer an M4. Why? I can suppress it (ever shot a weapon in a confined space...).


Valid choice but you just added what, $800 minimum to the price of the rifle? And put yourself in another category with the BATF Form 4 app.....

 

[Hokiefyd]

I did something similar recently. I bought a Mossberg 500 combo from Richards that includes a 26" choked barrel and a 24" rifled barrel in 20 ga. I have not shot the rifled barrel, and plan to trade it for a smooth barrel that I can cut down to 18.5". $379, vs. $299 for the Mossberg 500 non-combo, so I felt it was worth it. It came with a 1.5-4.5x32 scope that I put on my Ruger 10/22 and have fun plinking with.

I liked the Mossberg for ergonomics of controls (I also owned and liked a 12 ga 500 before this) and ability to replace the ejector if I never need to. I like the Remington for the ability to add to the magazine tube.

I've shot my new 20 ga 500 once, and just LOVE it. You're doing the right thing in looking at 20 ga compared with 12 ga in my opinion. My shorter 12 ga riot gun was a real beast to shoot. This heavier (due to longer barrel) 20 ga is just a [censored] cat in comparison. It has a nice and firm recoil pulse about akin to my '94 Winchester .30-30. Like the internet sez, it really does feel like it's half the recoil of the 12 ga.

I'm a happy camper. I think you will be, too, regardless of the brand you choose.

 

[2002 Maxima SE]

Originally Posted By: shiny
Gun-proofing children is a lot like teaching them how to behave around swimming pools and not to play with matches.

My late husband was a teacher, and also a firearms safety instructor. If anyone's interested, this is how he gun-proofed his son:

When the boy was very small he didn't know there were guns in the house. When he was seven and getting curious about guns, his dad explained that guns were not toys, but very dangerous tools, like his shop tools. He took his son to the firing range, put a canteloupe on a rail, and again explained that guns were very, very dangerous and not toys.

Without putting hearing protection on his son (just this one time), he shot the canteloupe once with his .45. It was so loud, the canteloupe exploded so spectacularly, the boy was absolutely shocked. It was like nothing he had seen on TV. Then my husband asked him if he now understood that guns are not toys. The kid could only nod his head with his mouth hanging open, "Yes, Papa."

After that, the boy understood that if he ever wanted to see his dad's guns he only had to ask and his dad would get them out for him. He had to memorize the Four Rules of Firearm Safety, learned how to clean the weapons, and got taken to the range for lessons.

When watching TV together, they played a game to see who could count the most violations of the Four Rules of Firearm Safety. "He didn't check to see if the gun was loaded when he picked it up!" "She had her finger on the trigger when she wasn't ready to fire!" This reinforced the rules to him.

The Four Rules of Firearm Safety:

1. Treat every gun as a loaded gun, every time you pick it up. Even if you just put it down for only a moment, check it again when you pick it up. Make it a habit.

2. Never point your gun at anything you don't wish to totally destroy. Don't sweep the muzzle around the room or gesture with a gun in your hand.

3. Never put your finger on the trigger until you're aimed at your intended target and ready to fire.

4. Always be aware of your target background. If you miss or the round penetrates your target, what's behind that wall?

HTH.


Excellent post! Thanks!

 

[2002 Maxima SE]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Everyone always says just get a pump shotgun. Is that good advice? Maybe, maybe not. Out of handguns, rifles, and shotguns, the pump shotgun is the hardest to master. It takes the most training to master. It takes the most training to become absolutely proficient with. Every Tom and Larry just thinks you can hand the wife an 870 and she will instantly be safe from an intruder. Not so. The gun is a tool while the real weapon is the person, and if the person doesn't have the skill set, ability, or willingness to pull the trigger, than they are not a very effective weapon.

So OP, go ahead and take that defensive shotgun class. It's a good start.

The Remington 870 is a good gun. I'm heavily invested in the 870 having been trained on one and as an armorer on one. Its a great, effective combat shotgun. Yes the quality has gone down hill a bit lately, but that can be fixed with by a person that knows the usual 870 fixes (polish the chamber, replace the mim extractor, etc)

If I was in your shoes and not invested/trained on the 870, I would SERIOUSLY look at the Benelli Nova and Super Nova pump shotguns. They are they best built and highest quality pump shotguns on the market.

And just to add another 2 cents, if you are willing to spend the money, the best combat shotgun on the market is the Benelli M2 or M4. Its an amazing weapon, although expensive as all get out.

And just to add another 2 cents, if you want the absolute best home defense weapon that you can get, than start looking at a semi auto magazine fed rifle such as an AR-15, mini-14, AK, etc.


Thanks! I've looked at the Benelli as well. Thanks for the model suggestions.

My wife will also be taking the two stage Defensive Shotgun classes.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: 2002 Maxima SE


Thanks! I've looked at the Benelli as well. Thanks for the model suggestions.

My wife will also be taking the two stage Defensive Shotgun classes.

If you go to some gun shows you can get a 12 Ga. Shotgun with exposed triggers. for under $200.
I don't like to keep a shotgun loaded in my house...but with external hammers (withou kids in the house). Its a safe way of doing things.

If you need more than those 2 with #3 Buck, I don't know what 2 say. Then again you can mount 4 on the stock (or keep 2 more beside the shotgun and have them in your hand) and with practice get two others in there in a few seconds.

I can't envision a threat being around after those two shots. And you have almost 100% chance of getting lead thru both barrels.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: Ws6

Just curious...what are your passions? 4200sq ft house and discount bin shotgun. I'm assuming cars? Pix would liven the thread!

That said, you listed a best-case scenario, not a worst-case scenario. IMO, if someone is breaking into your home and needs shooting, "best case" has already left the room and Mr. Murphy has replaced him.

Let's presume the dog is at the vet, the ADT system wasn't set because...who commits crime in your neighborhood, anyway, right? and you're jamming out to something on YouTube or whatever. Your wife/kid/you opened a window the other morning to get some crisp air, and did not lock it after closing it.

Perfect storm, I know, but I like having something handy, because a B&E/Home invasion isn't something I want to view as "best case scenario".

YMMV.


Rule #1 I never put pictures of my home on the internet unless it's for sale.
#2. The alarm is always set at night. The dog is always there. It's his job.
#3. My Mav 88 is fine. I designed and built my home because I am a tradesman and could do it for 50 cents on a dollar 20 years ago.
#4 I live in a really nice executive neighborhood but don't buy luxury cars or guns or anything. I do spend a lot of money on my kids education and invest in real estate and securities versus objects that depreciate.
#5. I buy less expensive guns because I can buy more of them for my firearms budget. My choice.
#6. I change my own oil and work on my own cars, motorcycles, boats etc.

It's just me.....I am an educated guy but was once a blue collar guy and never want to lose the joy of working with my hands.

BTw, I get to go socialize with all kinds of doctors and lawyers and educators etc but really have more fun having a beer with the local guys at the neighborhood corner bar. Real character in people comes in many sizes and shapes and has little to do with income.

 

[john_pifer]

Originally Posted By: Doog
Originally Posted By: Ws6

Just curious...what are your passions? 4200sq ft house and discount bin shotgun. I'm assuming cars? Pix would liven the thread!

That said, you listed a best-case scenario, not a worst-case scenario. IMO, if someone is breaking into your home and needs shooting, "best case" has already left the room and Mr. Murphy has replaced him.

Let's presume the dog is at the vet, the ADT system wasn't set because...who commits crime in your neighborhood, anyway, right? and you're jamming out to something on YouTube or whatever. Your wife/kid/you opened a window the other morning to get some crisp air, and did not lock it after closing it.

Perfect storm, I know, but I like having something handy, because a B&E/Home invasion isn't something I want to view as "best case scenario".

YMMV.


Rule #1 I never put pictures of my home on the internet unless it's for sale.
#2. The alarm is always set at night. The dog is always there. It's his job.
#3. My Mav 88 is fine. I designed and built my home because I am a tradesman and could do it for 50 cents on a dollar 20 years ago.
#4 I live in a really nice executive neighborhood but don't buy luxury cars or guns or anything. I do spend a lot of money on my kids education and invest in real estate and securities versus objects that depreciate.
#5. I buy less expensive guns because I can buy more of them for my firearms budget. My choice.
#6. I change my own oil and work on my own cars, motorcycles, boats etc.

It's just me.....I am an educated guy but was once a blue collar guy and never want to lose the joy of working with my hands.

BTw, I get to go socialize with all kinds of doctors and lawyers and educators etc but really have more fun having a beer with the local guys at the neighborhood corner bar. Real character in people comes in many sizes and shapes and has little to do with income.


Amen, Doog! Good post!