Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5w40 vs BMW 5w30 LL-01 oil

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^^^ With identical data and version number (v1.2) as the Feb. 24, 2015 TDS.
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So TomX3, how can these not be TDS's for the current product from the manufacturer? They have the current product name including the PurePlus Technology modifier, are dated after the switch to GTL, and come from (copyrighted by) SOPUS.

from the Pennzoil Q&A

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/pennzoil-q-a/

5. As a user of Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40, where does that product fit among the new Pennzoil Platinum® and Pennzoil Ultra Platinum™ with PurePlus™ Technology offerings?

Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40 is an ACEA A3/B4 type oil and is suitable for vehicles where the motor oil type is required as an SAE 5W-40 grade. The new, comparable product is named Pennzoil Platinum® Euro Full Synthetic motor oil with PurePlus™ Technology 5W-40.

6. Is Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40 being discontinued? Will there be a product called Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-40 Euro with PurePlus™ Technology?

Yes, Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40 is discontinued. The new product is named Pennzoil Platinum® Euro Full Synthetic motor oil with PurePlus™ Technology 5W-40.

1. When did Pennzoil begin using GTL base oil in Pennzoil Platinum®?

We began switching production facilities to use PurePlus™ base oil in our Pennzoil Platinum® line of motor oils—bulk, packaged and Eco-box—in 2013. Beginning February 1, 2014, Pennzoil Platinum® packaging indicated the use of this technology was 100%, and all production locations have switched.

2. When did Pennzoil 5W-40 Ultra Euro begin being manufactured with PurePlus™ Technology?

We began switching production facilities to use PurePlus™ Technology in our Pennzoil Platinum® motor oils—bulk, packaged and Eco-box—in 2013. Beginning February 1, 2014, Pennzoil Platinum packaging indicated the use of this technology was 100%, and all production locations have switched.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
This one is dated 7.1.2015:
http://www.epc.shell.com/documentRetrieve.asp?documentId=120746362


Thank you. I couldn't find that before. While the US TDS's are linked on this page, none of the Euro ones are. http://www.pennzoil.com/motor-oil/pennzoil-platinum-full-synthetic-motor-oil/#About&panel1-1

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
So TomX3, how can these not be TDS's for the current product from the manufacturer? They have the current product name including the PurePlus Technology modifier, are dated after the switch to GTL, and come from (copyrighted by) SOPUS.


I couldn't locate that other one on the Shell site. All I found were the ones on windows.net which were the ones you found. Still the TDS are lacking some useful information they used to provide in the past such as HTHS and noak volatility.

There are some things that just don't seem to add up for me which is why I wanted to know more about these oils.

One thing they say is PP keeps engines 8% cleaner than Mobil 1. On the PP Euro 5w40 TDS they say:

"Helps keep pistons cleaner than required by the toughest industry standard. BETTER FUEL ECONOMY Drive on average an extra 550 miles vs. a dirty engine."

on the regular PP 5w30 TDS they say:

"Keeps pistons up to 40% cleaner than required by the toughest industry standard. Keeps your engine cleaner than any leading synthetic oi. CLEANER PISTONS Drive on average an extra 550 miles vs. a dirty engine."

On the Pennzoil Q&A on this site they say:

"Pennzoil Platinum® Full Synthetic motor oil with PurePlus™ Technology keeps pistons up to 40% cleaner than the toughest industry standards (Based on ILSAC GF-5, Sequence IIIG piston deposit test using SAE 5W-30; does not apply to Pennzoil Platinum Euro products), meanwhile Pennzoil Ultra Platinum™ Full Synthetic motor oil with PurePlus™ Technology keeps pistons up to 65% cleaner than the toughest industry standards. (Based on ILSAC GF-5, Sequence IIIG piston deposit test using SAE 5W-30; does not apply to Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 0W-40.)"

My takeaway is that PP Euro doesn't clean as well as regular PP. Considering keeping the engine clean is one of the big items pushed in marketing for PP/PU oils I was hoping to get a better picture of where PP Euro sits. Does PP Euro clean better or worse than other LL-01 oils? If PP Euro doesn't clean as well as other PP oils how can they still suggest an extra 550 miles?

I know that all LL-01 approved oils will do fine but aren't there any features that differentiate one from the other as the marketing of the different companies suggest?
 
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My takeaway is that PP Euro doesn't clean as well as regular PP.

I wouldn't be so quick to jump to this conclusion.

Unfortunately, Lubrizol has removed all API/ILSAC specs from their performance comparison tool, but back when it was still there, here is what the comparison of ILSAC GF-5 against BMW LL-01 looked like:

LL01.jpg


As you can see, LL-01 outperforms GF-5 when it comes to piston deposits (the further away from the center of the chart, the better). Granted, this is relative, so take it for what it's worth.

Image courtesy of our friend OVERKILL. Thank you for preserving this.

BTW, if you're interested in playing around with various mfg specs, here is the current version of the Lubrizol tool, if you have not come across it before:
https://www.lubrizol.com/apps/relperftool/pc.html
 
Based on the literature I would expect PP and PU to exceed the API SN and ILSAC GF-5 specs so I'm not sure that answers my question as far as regular PP vs PP Euro.

That is a really nice tool though. Seeing that chart I finally understand why you and others keep saying any LL-01 oil will be basically the same. The spec is already expecting a lot of the oil and there isn't a lot of room for improvement.

There still is room according to the spec for manufacturers to differentiate based on fuel economy and aftertreatment compatibility. Would be awesome if there was a tool like that you can use to compare actual oils and not just specs.
 
The SN/GF-5 specs on cleanliness are not the same as various ACEA specs. I don't think any of the oil companies have compared their A3/B4 type oils to the competitors' offerings for marketing purposes, at least not in North America. It's such a small part of the market that it doesn't matter. And, where there are differences, they're essentially different.

Oils from different brands meeting the same specification are a lot more similar in service than they are different, by a long shot.
 
Originally Posted By: TomX3

There still is room according to the spec for manufacturers to differentiate based on fuel economy

MB 229.5 spec kind of addresses that, but there is only so much you can achieve there when you have to have HT/HS viscosity of at least 3.5 cP. Because of this, such oil will never achieve the same level of fuel economy as an ILSAC GF-5 oil that can have significantly lower HT/HS viscosity.

Quote:
and aftertreatment compatibility.

That's a tricky one. Improving aftertreatment compatibility means having to reduce additive pack. This in turn reduces the max oil change interval you can achieve, unless you use ultra low sulfur gasoline. Most of us in the US don't have access to ULS gasoline yet, apart from California. But if you're not shooting for longish factory recommended OCI, then this is basically a non-issue.
 
Here is what I got from my SOPUS contact, pertaining to the current version of PPE 5w-40:

Quote:
HT/HS viscosity: 3.6 mPa.s @150C (typical) by ASTM D4693
NOACK: 6.2% (typical) by ASTM 5800
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
6.2% NOACK, there's your GTL at work!

Well, most of their other supposedly GTL-based oils in the PP and PUP lineup don't have Noack anywhere near as good, which makes you wonder. Maybe it's the amount of GTL content in the oil that makes the difference.
 
I would expect Shell to bring the BMW LL-01 5W-30 to standard retail under the Pennzoil label in a couple of years.

Pennzoil never gets in a hurry about putting new products on discounter's shelves.

Then, the LL-01 5W-40 will probably go away.

In the meantime, I'd use the least expensive, most readily available option.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Their Euro stuff is hard to find, regardless of which is newest. I should not need to go on safari to find a Pennzoil Euro oil.


Especially since the very good M1 0W-40 is available everywhere.
BMW's store brand oils look lackluster in UOAs and any Euro SOPUS oil is too hard to find on this side of the pond.
BP offers two pretty easy to find Castrol alternatives to the M1 as well.
 
Like I mentioned a few times on the board, up here, BP offers four alternatives that aren't hard to find. The only place I've come across the Pennzoil Euro stuff so far is NAPA in the EcoBox. If I had a Euro vehicle needing the specs, I'd grab it, since the price is fairly reasonable. For my application, though, it's not competing favourable with Delvac 1 for price.

Our local Shell distributor needs to also be a Pennzoil-Quaker State distributor, but to do so, I think they need a bit more warehouse space, at least if they want to be supplying the retail locations.
 
#1 All of the BMW dealer oil (0w3, 0w40, 5w30) is Shell GTL. It says so on the labels.

#2 Shell, like Castrol(BP) before them, will never stock retail a competing oil in the same weight as what's sold at the dealerships OR it won't be labeled as LL01.

#3 BMW OCI is now approx. 10k miles vs 15k miles. This change was done a couple of years ago.
 
It's interesting to note that Castrol 0w-30 A3/B4, 5w-40 A3/B4, 0w-40 A3/B4, and 5w-30 A3/B4 all have retail data sheets, though, dated when BMW and Castrol were still lubricant partners, and all have LL-01. Of course, there may be different approaches in the U.S. versus Canada.

NAPA Canada advertises 0w-40 and 5w-40 Pennzoil Euro. Of course, we all know how data sheets and advertisements can be. Unless I actually take a physical look at a label, I'm not going to have any idea what certifications are actually present.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
It's interesting to note that Castrol 0w-30 A3/B4, 5w-40 A3/B4, 0w-40 A3/B4, and 5w-30 A3/B4 all have retail data sheets, though, dated when BMW and Castrol were still lubricant partners, and all have LL-01. Of course, there may be different approaches in the U.S. versus Canada.

NAPA Canada advertises 0w-40 and 5w-40 Pennzoil Euro. Of course, we all know how data sheets and advertisements can be. Unless I actually take a physical look at a label, I'm not going to have any idea what certifications are actually present.


In the US, Castrol only sold 0w30 as LL01, and 5w40 as LL98. Towards the end of their relationship with BMW the 5w40 was updated to LL01. 0w40 wasn't offered.
 
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Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
In the US, Castrol only sold 0w30 as LL01, and 5w40 as LL98. Towards the end of their relationship with BMW the 5w40 was updated to LL01. 0w40 wasn't offered.

And there was no 5w-30 LL01 compliant Castrol oil at retail stores either. There still isn't today.
 
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
In the US, Castrol only sold 0w30 as LL01, and 5w40 as LL98. Towards the end of their relationship with BMW the 5w40 was updated to LL01. 0w40 wasn't offered.

Yes, the 0w-40 is pretty new, and I had forgotten that the 5w-40 only had the old spec for a while.

Quattro Pete: There is Castrol Edge 5w-30 A3/B4 which is LL01 up here at retail.
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I actually found the product at a retail store before I found the data sheet.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Quattro Pete: There is Castrol Edge 5w-30 A3/B4 which is LL01 up here at retail.

Yeah, I know. I was responding to BMWTurboDzl, regarding the US market.

In some ways, you guys have a better selection of Euro oils than we do down here.
smile.gif
 
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