I have a kubota d722 20.9 hp in a walker mower. I want to put a bypass filter on it. I want to know how much longer an engine with a bypass filter will last....or doese it just make the oil last longer....
how much longer will engine last with bypass filte
- Thread starter Transamfan454
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No Longer at all. My 30 year old Honda mower runs like new on cheap 10W30 oil
Bypass isnt to make the engine last longer, its to make the oil last longer so you don't have to change as often.
They say that 5 micron range is what doese most of the damage to an engine...How why wouldn't last longer if u get the fine grinding paste out of the oil?
It's implied that it will last longer, but there is no way to quantify how long, and that includes "not as long" and "exactly the same".
Think about it this way ... how much less would it run with dirty oil? We intuitively believe dirty oil would shorten engine life, but we can't quantify by how much.
And I say this with regard to some vehicles with severely neglected motors I've known of that lasted longer than average. A painter I know never changed the oil in his vehicles, ever (although he did check the oil monthly and added oil if needed).
They lasted over 100K miles and for many years of service, to the point where as used vehicles (with the only oil + filter change they ever had freshly installed) they commanded the same used price as a well maintained vehicle of the same year, make and model.
I am a believer in Bypass Oil Filtration, but if you want to build data, you need to simply guess based on the Fleet Service experiments done by various companies and Government entities (military, police, bus, etc); there is data out there.
Think about it this way ... how much less would it run with dirty oil? We intuitively believe dirty oil would shorten engine life, but we can't quantify by how much.
And I say this with regard to some vehicles with severely neglected motors I've known of that lasted longer than average. A painter I know never changed the oil in his vehicles, ever (although he did check the oil monthly and added oil if needed).
They lasted over 100K miles and for many years of service, to the point where as used vehicles (with the only oil + filter change they ever had freshly installed) they commanded the same used price as a well maintained vehicle of the same year, make and model.
I am a believer in Bypass Oil Filtration, but if you want to build data, you need to simply guess based on the Fleet Service experiments done by various companies and Government entities (military, police, bus, etc); there is data out there.
sounds like if u got the money to put one on it would be a worth while investment at giving the engine its best shot at long term life. I plan on using this engine 8 hrs a day..once i start it don't shut off till the evening. But now which one would u think is better amsoil or frantz?
Originally Posted By: Transamfan454
I have a kubota d722 20.9 hp in a walker mower. I want to put a bypass filter on it. I want to know how much longer an engine with a bypass filter will last....or doese it just make the oil last longer....
Stop!
You're blindly taking shots in the dark without having any idea whatsoever as to aim.
I'm rather familiar with these little IDI/NA engines, and can tell you that downtime and damage is mainly a result of two issues:
1. Fuel - Start with quality Diesel from a high turnover, name-brand station. Then, select a good additive; Power Service Diesel Kleen is widely available. For optimum performance and smoke-free operation, it's cheap insurance.
2. Air - Ensure the intake/filtration is leak free and functioning properly. This is critical!
Any quality oil is fine; Delo, Delvac, Rotella, etc.
Then, get an oil analysis done.
I have a kubota d722 20.9 hp in a walker mower. I want to put a bypass filter on it. I want to know how much longer an engine with a bypass filter will last....or doese it just make the oil last longer....
Stop!
You're blindly taking shots in the dark without having any idea whatsoever as to aim.
I'm rather familiar with these little IDI/NA engines, and can tell you that downtime and damage is mainly a result of two issues:
1. Fuel - Start with quality Diesel from a high turnover, name-brand station. Then, select a good additive; Power Service Diesel Kleen is widely available. For optimum performance and smoke-free operation, it's cheap insurance.
2. Air - Ensure the intake/filtration is leak free and functioning properly. This is critical!
Any quality oil is fine; Delo, Delvac, Rotella, etc.
Then, get an oil analysis done.
Originally Posted By: Transamfan454
sounds like if u got the money to put one on it would be a worth while investment at giving the engine its best shot at long term life. I plan on using this engine 8 hrs a day..once i start it don't shut off till the evening. But now which one would u think is better amsoil or frantz?
Running an engine 8 hours a day is actually better for it than running one 10 minutes a day. Use a good oil and filter, and make sure your air filter is good, with no leaks in the system to allow unfiltered air to enter the engine.
sounds like if u got the money to put one on it would be a worth while investment at giving the engine its best shot at long term life. I plan on using this engine 8 hrs a day..once i start it don't shut off till the evening. But now which one would u think is better amsoil or frantz?
Running an engine 8 hours a day is actually better for it than running one 10 minutes a day. Use a good oil and filter, and make sure your air filter is good, with no leaks in the system to allow unfiltered air to enter the engine.
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: Transamfan454
I have a kubota d722 20.9 hp in a walker mower. I want to put a bypass filter on it. I want to know how much longer an engine with a bypass filter will last....or doese it just make the oil last longer....
Stop!
You're blindly taking shots in the dark without having any idea whatsoever as to aim.
I'm rather familiar with these little IDI/NA engines, and can tell you that downtime and damage is mainly a result of two issues:
1. Fuel - Start with quality Diesel from a high turnover, name-brand station. Then, select a good additive; Power Service Diesel Kleen is widely available. For optimum performance and smoke-free operation, it's cheap insurance.
2. Air - Ensure the intake/filtration is leak free and functioning properly. This is critical!
Any quality oil is fine; Delo, Delvac, Rotella, etc.
Then, get an oil analysis done.
Oh, I didn't realize this was a diesel! Yeah. Fuel issues will get you. If it doesn't have a good fuel filter, I would get one on there over a oil bypass.
Originally Posted By: Transamfan454
I have a kubota d722 20.9 hp in a walker mower. I want to put a bypass filter on it. I want to know how much longer an engine with a bypass filter will last....or doese it just make the oil last longer....
Stop!
You're blindly taking shots in the dark without having any idea whatsoever as to aim.
I'm rather familiar with these little IDI/NA engines, and can tell you that downtime and damage is mainly a result of two issues:
1. Fuel - Start with quality Diesel from a high turnover, name-brand station. Then, select a good additive; Power Service Diesel Kleen is widely available. For optimum performance and smoke-free operation, it's cheap insurance.
2. Air - Ensure the intake/filtration is leak free and functioning properly. This is critical!
Any quality oil is fine; Delo, Delvac, Rotella, etc.
Then, get an oil analysis done.
Oh, I didn't realize this was a diesel! Yeah. Fuel issues will get you. If it doesn't have a good fuel filter, I would get one on there over a oil bypass.
[/quote]
I'm rather familiar with these little IDI/NA engines, and can tell you that downtime and damage is mainly a result of two issues:
[/quote]
Ramble Jam How many hours do they run maintaining as per factory manual?
Thanks.
I'm rather familiar with these little IDI/NA engines, and can tell you that downtime and damage is mainly a result of two issues:
[/quote]
Ramble Jam How many hours do they run maintaining as per factory manual?
Thanks.
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Ramble Jam How many hours do they run maintaining as per factory manual?
Are you asking about maintenance intervals, or total life expectancy?
Well I was thinking total life, but maintenance is also interesting point.
Im alway interested to hear abount small diesel engine lifespans and maintenance at any application from tractor to genset.
I own and operate multiple kubota gensets and a run a perkapillar genset so Im invested and open to learning as much as I can.
Thanks
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Ramble Jam How many hours do they run maintaining as per factory manual?
Are you asking about maintenance intervals, or total life expectancy?
Well I was thinking total life, but maintenance is also interesting point.
Im alway interested to hear abount small diesel engine lifespans and maintenance at any application from tractor to genset.
I own and operate multiple kubota gensets and a run a perkapillar genset so Im invested and open to learning as much as I can.
Thanks
I have seen one kubota diesel engine on a grasshopper mower with 9000 hours....I dont think that is the norm though
Filtering the oil with a bypass doesn't address the depletion of the additives.
Then there's the increase concentration of contaminates.
Then there's dilution.
Then you need to send in costly oil samples to determine what's going on.
The only thing that has ever worn out in my engines are the oil seals. I've also had marine diesel engines lasting 40+ years WITHOUT an oil filter.
I just replace my oil so I can get 0 particles at < 5 microns, plus fresh additives, and reestablish the viscosity.
Then there's the increase concentration of contaminates.
Then there's dilution.
Then you need to send in costly oil samples to determine what's going on.
The only thing that has ever worn out in my engines are the oil seals. I've also had marine diesel engines lasting 40+ years WITHOUT an oil filter.
I just replace my oil so I can get 0 particles at < 5 microns, plus fresh additives, and reestablish the viscosity.
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
perkapillar
Funny guy, you are!
General thoughts...
The big three HDEO's (Delo, Delvac, Rotella) are fine given that your operating conditions are within the norm...not brutally hot/cold, or extended OCI's. Kubota calls for 100 hour changes. I personally choose to run M1 TDT in about everything (like Cujet here). So, do as I say, not as I do.
I'm very picky and critical about fuel; can't stand a smoky, poor running diesel!
-Purchase from a high-turnover, name-brand station (truck stop, etc.) in small quantities (don't purchase a massive amount and have it sit around forever).
-Use proper, modern, sealed yellow poly container. Keep in clean environment. Use a fuel funnel to fill with instead of the stupid spouts these comes with nowadays. Keep funnel sealed up when not in use.
-Use an additive. As aforementioned, Power Service Diesel Kleen (or its winter counterpart) addresses everything we need -- cleanliness, lubricity, and cetane. I use the max treat rate on these engines.
Also, air filtration is critically important, and is often the root cause of shortened engine life. Use a high-quality filter, and ensure the intake tubing is leak free.
Oil analysis, in this case, mainly serves to verify good air filtration.
These engines run north of 23:1 compression, and take a good amount of juice to cycle the glow plugs and crank fast enough to fire. Don't cheap out on a small battery.
If you take care of and keep on top of things, 10,000 hour life is entirely within reach of these engines in a ag envrionment.
perkapillar
Funny guy, you are!
General thoughts...
The big three HDEO's (Delo, Delvac, Rotella) are fine given that your operating conditions are within the norm...not brutally hot/cold, or extended OCI's. Kubota calls for 100 hour changes. I personally choose to run M1 TDT in about everything (like Cujet here). So, do as I say, not as I do.
I'm very picky and critical about fuel; can't stand a smoky, poor running diesel!
-Purchase from a high-turnover, name-brand station (truck stop, etc.) in small quantities (don't purchase a massive amount and have it sit around forever).
-Use proper, modern, sealed yellow poly container. Keep in clean environment. Use a fuel funnel to fill with instead of the stupid spouts these comes with nowadays. Keep funnel sealed up when not in use.
-Use an additive. As aforementioned, Power Service Diesel Kleen (or its winter counterpart) addresses everything we need -- cleanliness, lubricity, and cetane. I use the max treat rate on these engines.
Also, air filtration is critically important, and is often the root cause of shortened engine life. Use a high-quality filter, and ensure the intake tubing is leak free.
Oil analysis, in this case, mainly serves to verify good air filtration.
These engines run north of 23:1 compression, and take a good amount of juice to cycle the glow plugs and crank fast enough to fire. Don't cheap out on a small battery.
If you take care of and keep on top of things, 10,000 hour life is entirely within reach of these engines in a ag envrionment.
I will be using amsoil hd 5w30 diesel oil was my plan. I will also put two frantz filters on it one for oil and the other is diesel...a new set of injectors and glow plugs before I start the season...no smoke now but the original have been in since 1998. I will stay on top of all the little things air filter etc and shoot for 10000 hours.. Thats about the best a guy can do.
dnewton3
Staff member
To answer the specific thread question, the answer is not at all.
But to be fair, the Q is really undefined, so I'm basing my answer on an approach of allowing the maintenance program to be self-correcting, and not arbitrarily manipulated.
Equipment longevity is a matter of a good maintenance program; controlling the contamination and monitoring wear rates in an effort to keep them as low as you can practically afford is the key to long equipment life.
BP filtration does NOT provide a UNIQUE ability to extend life-cycle of equipment directly. Clean lubricants do help maximize the lifespan of your stuff. But "clean" lubricants are not a function ONLY of filtration. A healthy sump can also be a matter of drain/fill cycles. Much of this has to do with the fact that particulate contamination is most often an issue of soot, which is sub-micronic in infancy. Only if the add-pack is overwhelmed would a substantial amount of soot actually become a big issue (in terms of quantity and particle size). So BP filters do very little early on in an OCI. They do certainly prolong an OCI; that is the nature of their best benefit. BP filters extend OIL life, not equipment life.
There are lots of examples of vehicles with BP filtration lasting a very, very long time. This would leave one to conclude that BP filtration makes engines last longer.
But again, that is not a UNIQUE trait. There are lots of examples of vehicles having super-long lifespans with just "normal" products. Here are a couple of my favorites:
http://www.knfilters.com/news/news.aspx?ID=157
This guy changed his oil/FF often. Drove his truck further that most would ever do so. Just "normal" everyday products. Oddly, he saw the benefit to a reusable air filter, but not BP filtration, as a means of fiscally managing his overall maintenance program. So he saw the benefit to save money on air filters via upgraded components, but not oil/filters ... Go figure.
And there's this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjRgiAOHm-E
I was so intrigued by this I actually called the service center and asked about the back-story. It's interesting, and a perfect example of my point here ...
The first truck engine (5.4L Triton) actually quit running around 100k miles. Because this guy is on the road ALL the time, he didn't have time to wait for a rebuild, so they sourced another 5.4L from a wreck and put it in quickly. That second engine went about 1 million miles on just normal 10w-40 Havoline oil and a typical jobber filter. And when that second engine failed, he did it again; he got another 5.4L from a wreck. And that third engine went a tick over another million miles! Again - just 10w-40 oil and normal filters. And then, one more time, he replaced the engine a third time, and that fourth engine again went over a million miles! All the service was done at this one shop. Same fluids and filters all the time; just normal stuff that made three engines last over a million miles each.
Do you "need" BP filters to make a piece of equipment last? No you do not. You can "want" one, and that's fine by me. But the point to understand here is that what makes something last is a clean operating condition via a properly monitored maintenance routine. You can use a BP to filter out contamination, and they do that well. But you can also achieve that very same effect via drain/fill.
And your little Kubie engine is about as stout as any small diesel; it does NOT need to be pampered. Just use your common sense to maintain it well and it will far exceed any life-span you're likely to need it for.
P.S. - anyone that says "Yabut ..." (yeah, but) and utters something about the infamous GM filter study from the 1980s CLEARLY has never read the study and does not understand the limitations of ALT protocol, and is barred from having any input into a discussion about reality.
But to be fair, the Q is really undefined, so I'm basing my answer on an approach of allowing the maintenance program to be self-correcting, and not arbitrarily manipulated.
Equipment longevity is a matter of a good maintenance program; controlling the contamination and monitoring wear rates in an effort to keep them as low as you can practically afford is the key to long equipment life.
BP filtration does NOT provide a UNIQUE ability to extend life-cycle of equipment directly. Clean lubricants do help maximize the lifespan of your stuff. But "clean" lubricants are not a function ONLY of filtration. A healthy sump can also be a matter of drain/fill cycles. Much of this has to do with the fact that particulate contamination is most often an issue of soot, which is sub-micronic in infancy. Only if the add-pack is overwhelmed would a substantial amount of soot actually become a big issue (in terms of quantity and particle size). So BP filters do very little early on in an OCI. They do certainly prolong an OCI; that is the nature of their best benefit. BP filters extend OIL life, not equipment life.
There are lots of examples of vehicles with BP filtration lasting a very, very long time. This would leave one to conclude that BP filtration makes engines last longer.
But again, that is not a UNIQUE trait. There are lots of examples of vehicles having super-long lifespans with just "normal" products. Here are a couple of my favorites:
http://www.knfilters.com/news/news.aspx?ID=157
This guy changed his oil/FF often. Drove his truck further that most would ever do so. Just "normal" everyday products. Oddly, he saw the benefit to a reusable air filter, but not BP filtration, as a means of fiscally managing his overall maintenance program. So he saw the benefit to save money on air filters via upgraded components, but not oil/filters ... Go figure.
And there's this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjRgiAOHm-E
I was so intrigued by this I actually called the service center and asked about the back-story. It's interesting, and a perfect example of my point here ...
The first truck engine (5.4L Triton) actually quit running around 100k miles. Because this guy is on the road ALL the time, he didn't have time to wait for a rebuild, so they sourced another 5.4L from a wreck and put it in quickly. That second engine went about 1 million miles on just normal 10w-40 Havoline oil and a typical jobber filter. And when that second engine failed, he did it again; he got another 5.4L from a wreck. And that third engine went a tick over another million miles! Again - just 10w-40 oil and normal filters. And then, one more time, he replaced the engine a third time, and that fourth engine again went over a million miles! All the service was done at this one shop. Same fluids and filters all the time; just normal stuff that made three engines last over a million miles each.
Do you "need" BP filters to make a piece of equipment last? No you do not. You can "want" one, and that's fine by me. But the point to understand here is that what makes something last is a clean operating condition via a properly monitored maintenance routine. You can use a BP to filter out contamination, and they do that well. But you can also achieve that very same effect via drain/fill.
And your little Kubie engine is about as stout as any small diesel; it does NOT need to be pampered. Just use your common sense to maintain it well and it will far exceed any life-span you're likely to need it for.
P.S. - anyone that says "Yabut ..." (yeah, but) and utters something about the infamous GM filter study from the 1980s CLEARLY has never read the study and does not understand the limitations of ALT protocol, and is barred from having any input into a discussion about reality.
Last edited:
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- Oct 28, 2014
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A more truthful answer is: Bypass filtration can lead to a cleaner sump than new oil, how much this can affect engine longevity, no one knows. Common sense says that an engine run constantly on clinically clean oil should outlast an engine that ISN'T run that way, but there aren't any real world studies that prove so; or disprove so. And I have no opinion on your diesel lawn mower, but Mr. Newton is addressing a much larger issue and I feel compelled to respond.
Caterpillar says that 75% of component failures are the result of surface degradation caused by (oil) contamination. Unfiltered new oil is one of the worst sources of particulate contamination, and is typically not suitable for engines, transmissions or hydraulic systems...Caterpillar recommends cleaning new oil to a minimum of ISO 16/13 before adding: https://www.hyprofiltration.com/clientuploads/directory/CaseStudies/PDFs/CAT 5 Star.pdf (p2)
Mr. Newton is basing his answer on his own OPINION; and there are well-educated, researched, qualified, and informed opinions that disagree with Mr. Newton. For example:
Machine Life Extension Table
During the training, you’ll learn how to achieve up to 10X machine life extension for gearboxes, bearings, diesel engines, turbo machinery, and hydraulic system components. You’ll use this reference table to help plan and manage your machine life extension efforts. http://65.38.6.88/Read/26649/Oil-analysis-Noria-training
http://www.upstreampumping.com/article/p...nitoring-system
https://www.google.com/search?q=life+ext...KHWGzBpgQsAQIKQ
"BP filters extend OIL life, not equipment life." This statement is Mr. Newton's opinion, and can be contrasted with the fact that Noria Corp. has built a world-wide industry extending equipment life through fine filtration (sometimes bypass) and good maintenance practices to avoid particulate contamination.
Here is an opposing perspective from this site, no less: "There is a common feeling by many BITOGers (that have posted on this forum) that the primary benefit of bypass filtration is extended OCIs. Most people don't keep their vehicle long enough to realize the extended engine life that bypass filtration offers. But I disagree: In my opinion, the primary benefit is engine longevity, and extended OCIs is an added benefit."
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...cle#Post3010405
There is MUCH that I agree with dnewton3 on...I agree that bypass filtration and synthetic oil with 5-7-10-12-15K oil changes is a total waste of money. I agree that short-tripping with bypass filtration is a waste of money. I agree that there is a point of diminishing returns to the point that finer filtration is pointless...Although I might DISagree as to the ISO code of what that point is...I agree that bypass filtration is NOT a solution for poor air filtration, leaking gaskets, coolant in the oil, etc...Those are separate maintenance issues that must be addressed; and ANY benefit of bypass filtration ASSUMES an engine to be in sound mechanical condition.
Let's do an analogy; as Mr. Newton is so fond of: Let's say that you just bought a new vehicle; and there are many sources that compare particulate contamination in motor oil to sandpaper (abrasive) in your engine. Ok, I'm going to take sandpaper to the paint finish on your new vehicle. What grit paper do you want me to use? The finer, the better? Say 3000 grit is OK, but you'd rather I didn't do it at all? Then why use oil in your engine that has grit in it?
Indulge me to quote Jim Allen:
"As far as many of us can tell, and we have asked professionals in the field, no real-world study has been done that shows an improvement to X% filtration from a lower efficiency yields &% less wear. The fact is, nobody really knows how much less wear results from a 15um primary filter vs a 30 um in an engine used the way most people do and with normal contamination inputs. It stands to reason there are wear improvements with better filtration, but whether they are significant, or significant enough to warrant the extra expense necessary to achieve them is the big question. In other words, Return On Investment (ROI)."
(This is in agreement with Mr. Newton, it just points out the lack of real world studies to substantiate the opinion, which I believe should be stated as such, not presented without qualifiers as Mr. Newton does.) http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3016344/2
Furthermore, and in contrast to Mr. Newton's references of "normal" everyday oil, filters, oil changes and maintenance lasting 4 engines a million miles and being celebrated with free hot dogs and soda at the servicing dealer (why not, he's given them a LOT of business!)
In the real world of bypass filtration being effectively used, here is a trucking company that has taken a fleet of ONE HUNDRED TRUCKS a million miles EACH, without so much as an oil change; so here's a discussion about reality:
http://www.marketwired.com/press-release...ange-793914.htm
And there are more like this: http://www.gulfcoastfilters.com/Testimonials.htm
I would say that in the world of bypass filtration, million mile engines do not need to be celebrated, they are routine.
Why not approach any of these men and ask them to disconnect their bypass and see how long their engines last? I'll tell you their responses: Get your wallet out and pay for my engine. Or else their responses will be (censored on this site).
I'm not trying to be contentious or disrespectful with Mr. Newton. He is a statistical engineer, and I believe a site administrator here on BITOG. Mr. Newton authored this and holds copyright: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis-how-to-decide-what-is-normal/
However, I disagree with his hypothesis that clinically clean oil does NOT aid equipment longevity; and I will leave it to others, far more educated than I, to define "clinically clean oil." I would venture to say that an ISO code beginning with a 16 is probably a good starting point. I simply state this because of my extensive reading OUTSIDE this site.
Finally, if bypass filtration were to become routinely used here in the good ole USA and did NOTHING but reduce public oil consumption by 85-90% (as many bypass manufacturers claim), what would be the harm to the economy or environment? Mr. Newton and I would probably agree that even here on BITOG, it makes my stomach turn to see how many posters run synthetic oil and still change it at 7-10K miles.
Yes, I agree with Dave Newton that any product can be over or under utilized; and synthetic oil changes at 10K are grossly underutilized.
So, how much longer will an engine last with clinically clean oil? I would say indefinitely, along with other sound maintenance practices, but I can't prove anything, and neither can Mr. Newton; without somebody spending a LOT of time/money/research.
The full truth is no one knows, including dnewton. I just wish he'd admit it.
Caterpillar says that 75% of component failures are the result of surface degradation caused by (oil) contamination. Unfiltered new oil is one of the worst sources of particulate contamination, and is typically not suitable for engines, transmissions or hydraulic systems...Caterpillar recommends cleaning new oil to a minimum of ISO 16/13 before adding: https://www.hyprofiltration.com/clientuploads/directory/CaseStudies/PDFs/CAT 5 Star.pdf (p2)
Mr. Newton is basing his answer on his own OPINION; and there are well-educated, researched, qualified, and informed opinions that disagree with Mr. Newton. For example:
Machine Life Extension Table
During the training, you’ll learn how to achieve up to 10X machine life extension for gearboxes, bearings, diesel engines, turbo machinery, and hydraulic system components. You’ll use this reference table to help plan and manage your machine life extension efforts. http://65.38.6.88/Read/26649/Oil-analysis-Noria-training
http://www.upstreampumping.com/article/p...nitoring-system
https://www.google.com/search?q=life+ext...KHWGzBpgQsAQIKQ
"BP filters extend OIL life, not equipment life." This statement is Mr. Newton's opinion, and can be contrasted with the fact that Noria Corp. has built a world-wide industry extending equipment life through fine filtration (sometimes bypass) and good maintenance practices to avoid particulate contamination.
Here is an opposing perspective from this site, no less: "There is a common feeling by many BITOGers (that have posted on this forum) that the primary benefit of bypass filtration is extended OCIs. Most people don't keep their vehicle long enough to realize the extended engine life that bypass filtration offers. But I disagree: In my opinion, the primary benefit is engine longevity, and extended OCIs is an added benefit."
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...cle#Post3010405
There is MUCH that I agree with dnewton3 on...I agree that bypass filtration and synthetic oil with 5-7-10-12-15K oil changes is a total waste of money. I agree that short-tripping with bypass filtration is a waste of money. I agree that there is a point of diminishing returns to the point that finer filtration is pointless...Although I might DISagree as to the ISO code of what that point is...I agree that bypass filtration is NOT a solution for poor air filtration, leaking gaskets, coolant in the oil, etc...Those are separate maintenance issues that must be addressed; and ANY benefit of bypass filtration ASSUMES an engine to be in sound mechanical condition.
Let's do an analogy; as Mr. Newton is so fond of: Let's say that you just bought a new vehicle; and there are many sources that compare particulate contamination in motor oil to sandpaper (abrasive) in your engine. Ok, I'm going to take sandpaper to the paint finish on your new vehicle. What grit paper do you want me to use? The finer, the better? Say 3000 grit is OK, but you'd rather I didn't do it at all? Then why use oil in your engine that has grit in it?
Indulge me to quote Jim Allen:
"As far as many of us can tell, and we have asked professionals in the field, no real-world study has been done that shows an improvement to X% filtration from a lower efficiency yields &% less wear. The fact is, nobody really knows how much less wear results from a 15um primary filter vs a 30 um in an engine used the way most people do and with normal contamination inputs. It stands to reason there are wear improvements with better filtration, but whether they are significant, or significant enough to warrant the extra expense necessary to achieve them is the big question. In other words, Return On Investment (ROI)."
(This is in agreement with Mr. Newton, it just points out the lack of real world studies to substantiate the opinion, which I believe should be stated as such, not presented without qualifiers as Mr. Newton does.) http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3016344/2
Furthermore, and in contrast to Mr. Newton's references of "normal" everyday oil, filters, oil changes and maintenance lasting 4 engines a million miles and being celebrated with free hot dogs and soda at the servicing dealer (why not, he's given them a LOT of business!)
In the real world of bypass filtration being effectively used, here is a trucking company that has taken a fleet of ONE HUNDRED TRUCKS a million miles EACH, without so much as an oil change; so here's a discussion about reality:
http://www.marketwired.com/press-release...ange-793914.htm
And there are more like this: http://www.gulfcoastfilters.com/Testimonials.htm
I would say that in the world of bypass filtration, million mile engines do not need to be celebrated, they are routine.
Why not approach any of these men and ask them to disconnect their bypass and see how long their engines last? I'll tell you their responses: Get your wallet out and pay for my engine. Or else their responses will be (censored on this site).
I'm not trying to be contentious or disrespectful with Mr. Newton. He is a statistical engineer, and I believe a site administrator here on BITOG. Mr. Newton authored this and holds copyright: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis-how-to-decide-what-is-normal/
However, I disagree with his hypothesis that clinically clean oil does NOT aid equipment longevity; and I will leave it to others, far more educated than I, to define "clinically clean oil." I would venture to say that an ISO code beginning with a 16 is probably a good starting point. I simply state this because of my extensive reading OUTSIDE this site.
Finally, if bypass filtration were to become routinely used here in the good ole USA and did NOTHING but reduce public oil consumption by 85-90% (as many bypass manufacturers claim), what would be the harm to the economy or environment? Mr. Newton and I would probably agree that even here on BITOG, it makes my stomach turn to see how many posters run synthetic oil and still change it at 7-10K miles.
Yes, I agree with Dave Newton that any product can be over or under utilized; and synthetic oil changes at 10K are grossly underutilized.
So, how much longer will an engine last with clinically clean oil? I would say indefinitely, along with other sound maintenance practices, but I can't prove anything, and neither can Mr. Newton; without somebody spending a LOT of time/money/research.
The full truth is no one knows, including dnewton. I just wish he'd admit it.
Oh I dunno. But mine are 46 years old, 26 years old, 18 years old and 15 years old (the baby). The boat is 54 years old. The motorcycles are 31 and 20 years old.
The oldest hand tool I own is an all wood edge plane from my grandfather that dates back to just after the American revolution. I don't have an stereo equipment newer than 2002 and lots that is much older. The house is coming up on 90.
The family has had the odd wreck here and there. So yes vehicles can leave early. But 2 or 3 motors before they die is not uncommon.
Back in the day when I was trucking I was running a Pete cab kit on 53 Autocar rails to save on DMV fees. They've changed teh rules now, but I play the Gov't monopoly board rules as best I can
Lots of the marine engines I worked on and mod'd went well over 10,000 hours in small boats. the big engines are just settling in at 10K.
So how long, a long time. I don't drive in salt except in the desert washes now and then and it's dry. Stuff lasts. I do my own recycling (machinery and vehicles). I don't need a Gov't program. But if they want to pay me, I'll take it.
Us old farm boys can get a thing to run a while or so
Filtration is good. Wix, Baldwin, etc. Make some decent filters. By-passes work and they can extend lives of oil and machine parts. But some stuff you get tired of owning before it dies and that stuff gets sold, so how long - it depends ...
The oldest hand tool I own is an all wood edge plane from my grandfather that dates back to just after the American revolution. I don't have an stereo equipment newer than 2002 and lots that is much older. The house is coming up on 90.
The family has had the odd wreck here and there. So yes vehicles can leave early. But 2 or 3 motors before they die is not uncommon.
Back in the day when I was trucking I was running a Pete cab kit on 53 Autocar rails to save on DMV fees. They've changed teh rules now, but I play the Gov't monopoly board rules as best I can
Lots of the marine engines I worked on and mod'd went well over 10,000 hours in small boats. the big engines are just settling in at 10K.
So how long, a long time. I don't drive in salt except in the desert washes now and then and it's dry. Stuff lasts. I do my own recycling (machinery and vehicles). I don't need a Gov't program. But if they want to pay me, I'll take it.
Us old farm boys can get a thing to run a while or so
Filtration is good. Wix, Baldwin, etc. Make some decent filters. By-passes work and they can extend lives of oil and machine parts. But some stuff you get tired of owning before it dies and that stuff gets sold, so how long - it depends ...
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