BMW M3 - Alternative to OE 0W-30 LL FE ?

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster
I find it hard to believe that a 0W-40 would be the right choice for sub-zero cold starts when I can use 0W-30.



Why? They both carry the 0w-xx designation (Winter) which makes them good for -40C for pumping. Unless you are in Edmonton or Winnipeg, you aren't going to see those temperatures.

Given the tightness of the range for the CCS test @-35C, there really isn't going to be a huge difference between the 0w-30 and 0w-40.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: ringmaster
2015+ BMW M3 / M4 with 3.0L TT in-line six (S55)

The factory recommendation is BMW Twin Power Turbo Longlife-01 FE SAE 0W-30

That's odd that they would insist on FE oil for this engine specifically.


I found it odd too and while I don't know how much different an oil needs to be to meet the 'FE' designation maybe BMW had to use this oil to meet an EPA or CAFE target??


Is the pic you posted from the Canadian manual? I ask because the American manual for the 2016 M3 reads the same as the one I posted earlier for the 2015:

Originally Posted By: BMW

Viscosity grades for engine oils
When selecting an engine oil, ensure that
the engine oil belongs to the viscosity grade
SAE 0W-40, or malfunctions or engine dam‐
age may occur.
As an alternative, you can also use motor oils
with a viscosity grade of SAE 0W-30.◀
The engine oil quality is critical for the life of
the engine.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: ringmaster
maybe BMW had to use this oil to meet an EPA or CAFE target??

Possibly, since this new M4 is no longer subject to gas guzzler tax like the previous V8 version was. I guess every little bit helps.

More things to consider:

1. These engines have intense cooling systems;
2. Most people never push them hard enough to heat the oil much; and
3. A lot of people can't be counted on to warm the engine up properly before getting on it.

Those things together could explain the suitability of thinner oil, too.

 

[OVERKILL]

Not the same car, but my M5 had no problem getting the oil up close to 100C in the heat of summer just idling in traffic, and that was with a large sump and cooling system as well.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: il_signore97
At extreme cold temperatures, the first number (in this case, 0W) of the oil indicates the cold start performance of the oil. A 0W oil is required to pass CCS (cold crank testing) testing at -35 C, and MRV (cold flow testing) at -40 C. A 0W oil is the best you can get for these cold temperatures. As long as the oil flows when the engine is started, it's absolute viscosity is irrelevant as it is reaching every part of the engine that it needs to (and also providing that you do not redline the engine when the oil temp is still at -40 C -- this should be a given).

All true. However, the fact that they both clear the same bar at -35º C doesn't mean they clear it by the same amount, nor does it say much about other temps. A 0w-30 will still be thinner at most temps than a 0w-40.

As I said earlier in the thread, I agree that the 0w-40 will be fine. Let's just keep it real.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: il_signore97
At extreme cold temperatures, the first number (in this case, 0W) of the oil indicates the cold start performance of the oil. A 0W oil is required to pass CCS (cold crank testing) testing at -35 C, and MRV (cold flow testing) at -40 C. A 0W oil is the best you can get for these cold temperatures. As long as the oil flows when the engine is started, it's absolute viscosity is irrelevant as it is reaching every part of the engine that it needs to (and also providing that you do not redline the engine when the oil temp is still at -40 C -- this should be a given).

All true. However, the fact that they both clear the same bar at -35º C doesn't mean they clear it by the same amount, nor does it say much about other temps. A 0w-30 will still be thinner at most temps than a 0w-40.

As I said earlier in the thread, I agree that the 0w-40 will be fine. Let's just keep it real.


An FE 0w-30 with an HTHS around 3.0cP, sure. An LL-01 0w-30 will be close to identical to a 0w-40 due to the minimum HTHS requirement of 3.5cP. I believe the one guy that worked at BP said that the new Castrol 0w-40 is just the old GC with a touch more polymer to bump the visc up into the 40 range.

However, as I noted, the limit for CCS is rather tight, so there isn't going to be much difference regardless. Where you will see the larger difference will be with MRV at -40C.

 

[d00df00d]

So, slight revision: an LL-01 0w-30 will be very slightly thinner than a thin-ish 0w-40 at most temps; an LL-01 FE 0w-30 will be significantly thinner than any 0w-40. Agreed?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
So, slight revision: an LL-01 0w-30 will be very slightly thinner than a thin-ish 0w-40 at most temps; an LL-01 FE 0w-30 will be significantly thinner than any 0w-40. Agreed?


I wouldn't say "significantly"; they are not going to be massively different using the CCS visc, they can't be given the range, and I doubt the OP is seeing -40C (MRV) however the FE 0w-30 will certainly be thinner from either of those two points all the way up and beyond; thinner at any temp. I just wouldn't describe the difference as "significant"

Both oils would be significantly thinner at the discussed temps than a 5w-40 for example (also listed in the owner's manual) as it would be roughly twice the visc using CCS @ -30C and by definition fails the visc limits for CCS, MRV or both for the 0w-xx designation temps.

Both oils are more than suitable for the OP's application and operating conditions. We are essentially hashing out the minutiae between oils already qualified to be used at these temps, and furthermore, are approved for the application, LOL!

When I think of "significantly" I'm thinking like the difference between 20w-50 and 5w-30 at -30C

Your use of the term may vary from mine however.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
When I think of "significantly" I'm thinking like the difference between 20w-50 and 5w-30 at -30C

Your use of the term may vary from mine however.

Yeah, I think it does. I try to use it in the literal sense of measurable/noticeable/meaningful. Seems like you (like a lot of people) take it to mean "a lot."

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
When I think of "significantly" I'm thinking like the difference between 20w-50 and 5w-30 at -30C

Your use of the term may vary from mine however.

Yeah, I think it does. I try to use it in the literal sense of measurable/noticeable/meaningful. Seems like you (like a lot of people) take it to mean "a lot."


I take it as a synonym for important.

Measurable it most certainly is. However, it (what is measured) is still within the specified range for the 0w designation so it isn't particularly important; it isn't significant based on that. I don't think the latter two apply. It is neither noticeable nor meaningful IMHO. On the other hand, a 20w-50 wouldn't pump. That's both noticeable and meaningful

 

[ringmaster]

The oil guideline pic I posted is for the Canadian-spec 2016 M3 and I also received the same information from BMW Canada via my local dealer.

My engine will never see over 3500rpm or ~40% throttle until the oil reaches ~90C, regardless of what the dummy tach lights say is permissible for revs.

It is true that my car is unlikely to be cold started at -40C but it will regularly be subjected to -20C cold starts.

I am on board with moving away from the 'FE' oils and going from 3.0 HTHS to up around 3.5 HTHS but this can be done with an LL-01 0W-30 or I can use a 0W-40 to give a bit more headroom under extreme operation. This leads me to believe that the quality of the oil (base stock, add pack, etc) should be what I am focusing on…..no???

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster
The oil guideline pic I posted is for the Canadian-spec 2016 M3 and I also received the same information from BMW Canada via my local dealer.

My engine will never see over 3500rpm or ~40% throttle until the oil reaches ~90C, regardless of what the dummy tach lights say is permissible for revs.

It is true that my car is unlikely to be cold started at -40C but it will regularly be subjected to -20C cold starts.

I am on board with moving away from the 'FE' oils and going from 3.0 HTHS to up around 3.5 HTHS but this can be done with an LL-01 0W-30 or I can use a 0W-40 to give a bit more headroom under extreme operation. This leads me to believe that the quality of the oil (base stock, add pack, etc) should be what I am focusing on…..no???



I ran M1 0w-40 in my M5 exclusively after the OEM 5w-30 that was in it when I bought it. I only owned the car a few years and it was parked last winter but it did see -30C starts and had no issues. Its previous owner was the original and it was from Edmonton, where there are some REAL cold starts

I'm sure it got whatever the dealer put in it, which would have been BMW 5w-30, as it had the modified manual with the BMW 5w-30 (from TWS 10w-60) insert.

You are seriously over-thinking this. Choose M1 0w-40 or Castrol 0w-40, whichever you can get at CT cheaper, order a few OEM filters from the dealer and away you go. Both of those oils carry the same list of specs and approvals so for all intents and purposes, their performance/quality is identical.

 

[il_signore97]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: il_signore97
At extreme cold temperatures, the first number (in this case, 0W) of the oil indicates the cold start performance of the oil. A 0W oil is required to pass CCS (cold crank testing) testing at -35 C, and MRV (cold flow testing) at -40 C. A 0W oil is the best you can get for these cold temperatures. As long as the oil flows when the engine is started, it's absolute viscosity is irrelevant as it is reaching every part of the engine that it needs to (and also providing that you do not redline the engine when the oil temp is still at -40 C -- this should be a given).

All true. However, the fact that they both clear the same bar at -35º C doesn't mean they clear it by the same amount, nor does it say much about other temps. A 0w-30 will still be thinner at most temps than a 0w-40.

As I said earlier in the thread, I agree that the 0w-40 will be fine. Let's just keep it real.


And I also agree with what you've said above in response to my post. However, I DID keep it real. I never did say that they clear the minimum test specs by the same amount, but I purposely didn't even bring that up because it is irrelevant. Many of us on this site may think it matters, but the SAE doesn't. That's why there are minimum cranking and pumpability specs. So long as the 0W oils meet these specs (or exceed them), the engine will crank, and the oil will flow and lubricate all of the respective areas of the engine.

We on this site have this idea that thinner is better for cold weather, but this is not exactly the truth at face value. Of course, the oil does need to be capable of flowing at the extreme cold temperatures, but a 0W oil by definition will flow down to -40C. And furthermore, the LL-01 oils in question here (whether 0W30 or 0W40) exceed the minimum pumpability specs by quite a margin (for example, M1 is in the ~30,000-35,000 cP range while the SAE says that 0W oils must be less than ~60,000 cP at -40 C).

So, since these LL-01 synthetic oils in question here far exceed the minimum MRV specs as laid out by the SAE, they will not cause any lubrication related issues down to -40 C. I have personally started my car at those temps before without using the block heater (not in Toronto obviously lol), and other than an extra crank before the engine fired, I didn't notice any other issues or drama commonly associated with people that blatantly have the wrong oil in their vehicles for those conditions (and I run 0W40 - usually Castrol but M1 as well depending on sales here, as long as it carries the MB 229.5 approval).

In other words, the 0W30 OR 0W40 will be absolutely well suited to the conditions described by the OP

 

[bvance554]

Your all set with what you want to use, yet you asked a question. You're ok with not using a BMW approved oil, but want to stick with a particular grade. Just pick any 0w-30 and go with it. And don't ask for advice as to what oil you should use if all you're going to do is argue with every sensible suggestion.

 

[il_signore97]

Originally Posted By: ringmaster
Case closed

I did come here to learn and I understand more about the S55's oil needs now than I did 24hrs ago so progress has been made!

My plan is to run Castrol Edge Ti 0W-30 during the next few months of winter and engine break-in and then move to 0W-40 (M1 or Castrol) or the dealer-supplied M TwinPower 0W-40 in the summer.

BTW, you have a cool car ('09 Mercedes-Benz C300 Sport Calcite White 6-spd M/T) and I have never seen one with a MT!



Thank you! It is definitely rare here in North America to find a C-class with a 6-speed M/T. I loved it after I test drove it so I bought it and haven't looked back. Nowhere near as fast as yours though, but it does what I need it to do!!!

Glad you can find the information that you need to make the right oil choice. You will find that many here have strong opinions (myself included), but the most important thing is to sort through the facts and choose the oil that you are most comfortable with. You'll always be in good shape as long as you stick with a BMW certified / approved lubricant, regardless of the viscosity.

 

[lubricatosaurus]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: ringmaster

It is true that my car is unlikely to be cold started at -40C but it will regularly be subjected to -20C cold starts.

I ran M1 0w-40 in my M5 exclusively after the OEM 5w-30 that was in it when I bought it. I only owned the car a few years and it was parked last winter but it did see -30C starts and had no issues.


overkill, So having "no issues" meant success because the car started and didn't break? Really?
In reality, ringmaster is not overthinking this as you allege. A good plan is to go with the thinnest possible oil (LL-01 FE HTHS=3) oil in winter, as soon as BMW makes it available in a few months, and a higher HTHS oil in summer for hard driving.
Mobil tribologists illustrate why having "no issues" is not all we know:

Bottom line, go with the trend line "Better" for relevance to minimizing wear, and thinner oils perform better at -20 C. Basic principle: Thick oil takes longer to lubricate at start up.

 

[lubricatosaurus]

Originally Posted By: il_signore97
You'll always be in good shape as long as you stick with a BMW certified / approved lubricant, regardless of the viscosity.

Some of us want to optimize the best we can. "Regardless of the viscosity" you say? No, winter cold starts result in full oil pressure sooner using thinner oils.

Sure your engine will survive using a thicker LL-01 0w-40 in the winter, no doubt.

Spending that much money on a car might mean some will want to improve cold start performance using a thinner LL-01 FE like the factory fill in the M3 here.

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Originally Posted By: il_signore97
You'll always be in good shape as long as you stick with a BMW certified / approved lubricant, regardless of the viscosity.

Some of us want to optimize the best we can. "Regardless of the viscosity" you say? No, winter cold starts result in full oil pressure sooner using thinner oils.

Sure your engine will survive using a thicker LL-01 0w-40 in the winter, no doubt.

Spending that much money on a car might mean some will want to improve cold start performance using a thinner LL-01 FE like the factory fill in the M3 here.


Pretty much all you wrote here is wrong, no offence.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: ringmaster

It is true that my car is unlikely to be cold started at -40C but it will regularly be subjected to -20C cold starts.

I ran M1 0w-40 in my M5 exclusively after the OEM 5w-30 that was in it when I bought it. I only owned the car a few years and it was parked last winter but it did see -30C starts and had no issues.


overkill, So having "no issues" meant success because the car started and didn't break? Really?


Are you that dense? I had no issues because I used an oil appropriate (more than appropriate actually) for the operating conditions experienced. If you can't understand that then I'm afraid this isn't going to be much of a discussion.

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
In reality, ringmaster is not overthinking this as you allege.


No, actually he is. You saying he isn't doesn't make it so.

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
A good plan is to go with the thinnest possible oil (LL-01 FE HTHS=3) oil in winter, as soon as BMW makes it available in a few months, and a higher HTHS oil in summer for hard driving.


A good plan is to use an approved lubricant appropriate for the anticipated operating conditions and changed at a sane interval. It is that simple. Him going out of his way to seek out an oil specified for fuel economy instead of simply using what is available, which meets the cold temp performance spec's necessary to be used at -40C is ludicrous.

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Mobil tribologists illustrate why having "no issues" is not all we know:


Right, because a Tribologist would come up with a graph that compares a 0w-xx oil used within its intended temperature range and then compare it to two oils used outside of theirs. Or did you miss the part about the data showing performance at -32C? Outside the range of CCS for the 5w-xx designation and well outside the CCS and MRV range for the 10w-xx lubricant.

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Bottom line, go with the trend line "Better" for relevance to minimizing wear, and thinner oils perform better at -20 C. Basic principle: Thick oil takes longer to lubricate at start up.


No, basic principle, use a graph that shows oils used outside their intended operating range to back your bias and then hope nobody notices. Typical of your MO.

Bottom-line: Anything with the 0w-xx designation approved for this application is more than appropriate for use year round in Ontario and parts of Canada that don't experience -40C. Arguing to the contrary ignores the entire premise behind the winter grading system which only somebody with a huge thin oil hard-on busting a nut every time he can ram it into the uninformed would be dishonest enough to keep pushing.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus


Spending that much money on a car might mean some will want to improve cold start performance using a thinner LL-01 FE like the factory fill in the M3 here.


You have no idea the factory fill was a 0w-30. That's what is recommended as the service fill by BMW Canada (and not BMW USA BTW, as I noted earlier in the thread, who recommend an LL-01 0w-40). Those of us spending that much money on a car usually park them for the winter. My M5 was not a good car in snow and I only drove it the one year because we happened to be without a winter beater, a situation that was rectified for the following year. If anything, I would advocate the OP do the same. Salt is not kind to any car, and it is used quite heavily in many parts of Canada.