ZDDP based VS ashless hydraulic oil

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Originally Posted By: miniac007
The second point is the pourpoint. The 80w90 have a -27/-30° pourpour which I think could be borderline... That is why I would prefer a 75W with lower pourpoint.



I think you have a very valid point with 75W here, though I'd personally not concern with.

Please note it's the lowest ambient temperature you actually 'work' on the differential that matters, not contemporary ambient temperature per se.


Originally Posted By: miniac007
So the solution should be a 75w140 ? What do you think about it ?

http://www.q8oils.co.uk/downloads_temp/b34386a9-341f-417b-9e22-c3c34016f24c.PDF

or

http://www.rgracing-oils.co.uk/TDS/Trans/Syntrax Limited Slip 75W-140.pdf

But the price rise from 5€/liter to 10€/liter ...

In the 5€ range, I can have 100 cst at 40°C with this one:

Pennasol 75w-90 GL-5

So I wonder if it worth switching to a 75w140 for the double of the price...



Both the 75W140's quoted appear a tad too thick for winter operation, it's summer operation would be nice.

Now , the Pennasol 75W90 of KV@40*C of 99.2 cSt would be far better than the Addinol of KV@40*C of 89.2 cSt, for differential components wear protection.

If you may, try work towards a 75W110 of KV@40*C 135 cSt or a 75W90 of KV@40*C of 110 cSt.

https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2043.pdf

Pl bear in mind, it's the appropriate KV@40*C that influences your differential protection , base oils and additives system being equal.

JHMO
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Thank you zeng.

Difficult to have a 110 cst oil at a good price here...

For example, the amsoil 75w90 you listed is at 20€/l ...

http://www.ato24.de/schmierstoffe-lubric...be-0-946-l.html

The Pennasol is the only well priced I found, without falling down to well known bad brands or noname oils...

But note that I am not sure it will be 99 cst... I have only the 100°C cst in a VOA but it is lower than the claimed one... 14.68 instead of 16.8 ... 12% less, and 99 - 12% is 89 like addinol...

15120812352562369.jpg

150618030523125762.jpg
 
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Originally Posted By: miniac007
Thank you zeng.

Difficult to have a 110 cst oil at a good price here...

For example, the amsoil 75w90 you listed is at 20€/l ...

http://www.ato24.de/schmierstoffe-lubric...be-0-946-l.html

The Pennasol is the only well priced I found, without falling down to well known bad brands or noname oils...

But note that I am not sure it will be 99 cst... I have only the 100°C cst in a VOA but it is lower than the claimed one... 14.68 instead of 16.8 ... 12% less, and 99 - 12% is 89 like addinol...



FWIW, an Addinol 75W90 VOA could have given an even lower value of KV@40*C than 89.2 cSt.

I would still pick Pennasol over Addinol base on spec sheet.

Your China-made differential wear protection is much more sensitive to KV@40*C value of gear oils than a western-made like say, Volvo brand.
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Note: You do have an option of blending though.
 
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All 3 synthetics above are all probably blends of PAO and mineral oils.

In fact at similar operating viscosity , mineral oils offer higher film thickness than PAO oils through higher pressure viscosity coefficient at temperatures of 80*C and below.

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/586/viscosity-coefficient-bearing

In hot tropical climate like Malaysia, it makes no sense for me to consider PAO synthetic differential gear oils over mineral gear oils , as mineral gear oils are superior in higher film thickness through higher KV@40*C of xxW90/ xxW140, thus higher operating viscosity ; higher pressure viscosity coefficient and superior shear-stability over most synthetics.

Seals compatibility is part of oil specs.
 
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Nice article, thank you

For temperatures less than 70°C, mineral and PAG oils have significantly greater film thickness than PAO oils.

So I will keep dino oils, assuming HC oils like 75w-90 are considered as mineral...
 
Originally Posted By: miniac007
Nice article, thank you

For temperatures less than 70°C, mineral and PAG oils have significantly greater film thickness than PAO oils.

So I will keep dino oils, assuming HC oils like 75w-90 are considered as mineral...


Do avoid the confusion ......

In Figure 1 , KV@40/100*C of PAG sample is far greater than PAO sample , which in turn is greater than mineral oil sample.

In Figure 2 , Pressure Viscosity Coefficients of mineral oils ,across the whole temperature range, far outstrips that of PAO and PAG;

In Figure 3, EHL film thickness of thinner mineral oils (of lower KV@40/100*C ) is greater than that of a much thicker PAO (in terms of KV@40*C and KV@100*C) at temperatures below 80*C .........

At similar operating viscosity in your differential , a mineral oil has far higher EHL film thickness than a PAO/PAG. Further more, a typical 75W90 has far lower KV@40*C than a 80W90 mineral KV@40*C delivering lower operating viscosity................ so it is a double whammy for PAO/PAG in terms of far weaker EHL film thickness in relation to mineral oils ...............

That's the main reason why I was recommending you a mineral 80W90 differential gear oils (or 85W140 / SAE 140 in other circumstances like Summer and hot tropics) over any 75W90 which typically is synthetics.
 
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I understand.

The Addinol and Pennasol 75w90 are hydrocracked mineral oil, not PAO, as specified above in the MSDS snapshot

The Q8 and all more expensive ones contain POA, so I will avoid them.

So the pennasol remain the best one, both in term of price and mineral stuff.

I have no way to obtain a mineral 80w90 with a low pourpoint here... Only -25/-30° which is limit if I need to start the loader for moving hay or snow in winter...
 
Thank you Zeng.

I still have questions about the oil for the powershift transmission because I cannot find any full equivalence between chinese and occidental norms and market availability...

Especially, my problem is the friction coefficient needed for the clutch... I don't know what it needs.

* Regarding viscosity, the doc ask for Chinese transmission oil #8/#6, or mineral engine oil, or VG46/32 hydraulic oil.

* Regarding my climate, I will need 5w30 oil or HV 46 with low pourpoint.

Until this, no problem. The problem is to find the right 5w30...

- There is no mineral 5w30 neither 5w20 engine oil available here, only synthetic SN with friction modifiers... Problem with the clutch...

- I cannot find any TO-4 multigrade available here, and I don't want to change between 10w and 30 every seasons...

- An 5w30 UTTO (UTF) will be OK in term of viscosity but has friction modifiers, and it is not TO-4 only TO-2. And I have no idea if it will not be too slippery for the clutch... I cannot find anything about UTTO in chinese powershift... I just find UTTO is not good in a TO-4 designed transmission... But I don't know if the chinese one is designed like a Cat powershift which needs only TO-4 or like a tractor one, which can use UTTO...

- An HVLP 46 hydraulic oil will be OK in term of viscosity but I have no idea if it will not be to slippery for the clutch, and there will be the half of Zinc compared to a TO-4, and I don't know if it will be enough for the gears...


I have found the Sinotec 8# viscosity, and I can match it with a UTTO 5w30 or HVLP46, but I have no idea of its friction coefficient and how to match it with TO-4 ? TO-2 ? C-4 ? and I no idea of its % of Zn...


If you have any informations about it, they will precious for me :)
 
Originally Posted By: miniac007
Thank you Zeng.

I still have questions about the oil for the powershift transmission because I cannot find any full equivalence between chinese and occidental norms and market availability...

Especially, my problem is the friction coefficient needed for the clutch... I don't know what it needs.


This wet clutch needs friction modifier(s) for appropriate 'static coefficient of friction' AND appropriate 'dynamic coefficient of friction'.
Since it's a powershift transmission with gears and bearings , it also requires another friction modifier that provides even lower coefficient of friction than above . It too requires EP/AW additives for gearings.



Originally Posted By: miniac007
* Regarding viscosity, the doc ask for Chinese transmission oil #8/#6, or mineral engine oil, or VG46/32 hydraulic oil.

* Regarding my climate, I will need 5w30 oil or HV 46 with low pourpoint.

Until this, no problem. The problem is to find the right 5w30...

- There is no mineral 5w30 neither 5w20 engine oil available here, only synthetic SN with friction modifiers... Problem with the clutch...



No, you should avoid engine oil for powershift transmission .... if you can ..... as it generally lacks appropriate friction modifiers and EP/AW stated above. Instead try looking for powershift transmission oils or UTTO that contains appropriate additive system.

A 5W30 in the form of mineral oils ....? Probably it's hard to come by.

Originally Posted By: miniac007
- I cannot find any TO-4 multigrade available here, and I don't want to change between 10w and 30 every seasons...



TO-4 by specifications , are generally newtonian fluids without addition of VII's for shear-stability that is of great importance in power trains. There isn't any non-newtonian multigrade TO-4 , IIRC.


Originally Posted By: miniac007
- An 5w30 UTTO (UTF) will be OK in term of viscosity but has friction modifiers, and it is not TO-4 only TO-2.



A 5W30 UTTO is not TO-4 certified because it comprises of VII's required for ultra low temperature regimes , despite of the high probability of it having full set of appropriate additive systems for powershifts ..... TO-2 used to permit VII's , hence shorter clutch wear life if it's not shear-stable.

Originally Posted By: miniac007
And I have no idea if it will not be too slippery for the clutch... I cannot find anything about UTTO in chinese powershift... I just find UTTO is not good in a TO-4 designed transmission... But I don't know if the chinese one is designed like a Cat powershift which needs only TO-4 or like a tractor one, which can use UTTO...



An UTTO should have appropriate additives system for the clutch operation, and appropriate slipperiness for gears and bearings in a transmission.

Originally Posted By: miniac007
- An HVLP 46 hydraulic oil will be OK in term of viscosity but I have no idea if it will not be to slippery for the clutch, and there will be the half of Zinc compared to a TO-4, and I don't know if it will be enough for the gears...



A typical hydraulic oils by itself , doesn't contain appropriate additives for the wet clutch operation and it lacks EP/AW that's required for gears and , to a certain extent .. bearings in the transmissions.


Originally Posted By: miniac007
I have found the Sinotec 8# viscosity, and I can match it with a UTTO 5w30 or HVLP46, but I have no idea of its friction coefficient and how to match it with TO-4 ? TO-2 ? C-4 ? and I no idea of its % of Zn...


If you have any informations about it, they will precious for me :)



Honestly I have no clue on Sinotec 8# viscosity thing ..
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The best bet for your ambients is still UTTO 5W30 for better wear protections.

http://lubebase.com/cgi-bin/ctl/lube/Shell-Donax-TD-5W-30?id=6788
 
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Thank you very much for this long answer
smile.gif


As you understand, the problem is that the manual give the good viscosities, but give several types of possible oils which have all a completely different add pack...

I think the safer would be to copy the add pack of the chinese one, Sinopec 8#. But no idea if its addpack is a copy of a TO-4 or TO-2 or HV or else...

The Sinopec 8# is a multigrade like a HV46 or Caterpillar TO-4M TDTO-TMS or 10w30 UTTO in term of viscosity. But the addpack ???

http://english.sinopec.com/products_service/lubricants/auto_lube/transmission_f/20091229/7889.shtml

Here are the only docs I found if someone is interested in, in russian:

151211032738969815.jpg

151211032923421244.jpg


I doubt of my choice because Caterpillar write:

In the early 1990’s, Caterpillar introduced a new set of Transmission And Drive train Fluid Requirements, "Caterpillar TO-4", which replaced CD/TO-2. For maximum performance and life, Caterpillar has recommended TO-4 oils for use in Caterpillar equipment since 01Feb91. Caterpillar no longer supports the CD/TO-2 test specification and considers CD/TO-2 obsolete.

https://parts.cat.com/wcs-static/pdfs/TO4+06-23-06.pdf

And I don't know if the clutch is designed for TO-4 or TO-2 (=UTTO) on the chinese machine...
 
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Most likely the clutch materials are close to the composition of western materials so TO-4 fluids should be appropriate.

Chinese support and technical materials leave a lot to be desired.
 
Yes, TO-4 is backward compatible, and CAT says to stop using TO-2 because they say TO-4 is better...

But 5w30 UTTO, which is the best choice for me concerning viscosity for all seasons, is TO-2 and not TO-4.

So the question is: does chinese clutch accept TO-2 or need TO-4 ? Which means: is Sinopec #8 a kind of TO-4 or TO-2 ?
 
Originally Posted By: miniac007
Thank you very much for this long answer
smile.gif


As you understand, the problem is that the manual give the good viscosities, but give several types of possible oils which have all a completely different add pack...



Care to further elaborate on this ?



Originally Posted By: miniac007
In the early 1990’s, Caterpillar introduced a new set of Transmission And Drive train Fluid Requirements, "Caterpillar TO-4", which replaced CD/TO-2. For maximum performance and life, Caterpillar has recommended TO-4 oils for use in Caterpillar equipment since 01Feb91. Caterpillar no longer supports the CD/TO-2 test specification and considers CD/TO-2 obsolete.

https://parts.cat.com/wcs-static/pdfs/TO4+06-23-06.pdf

And I don't know if the clutch is designed for TO-4 or TO-2 (=UTTO) on the chinese machine...



Transmission clutches are NOT designed for or around TO-4 or TO-2.

It's the other way round, Caterpillar Inc came out with TO-2 and subsequently TO-4 transmission oil specifications to deal with their then previous and current production of Cat transmissions , more for components longevity/durability rather than CAFE-centric FE specs trending we see today.


Originally Posted By: miniac007
Yes, TO-4 is backward compatible, and CAT says to stop using TO-2 because they say TO-4 is better...

But 5w30 UTTO, which is the best choice for me concerning viscosity for all seasons, is TO-2 and not TO-4.

So the question is: does chinese clutch accept TO-2 or need TO-4 ? Which means: is Sinopec #8 a kind of TO-4 or TO-2 ?



In my view , ANY off-road powershift wet clutches would love to accept a TO-2/TO-4 oil , more than other non-powershift trans oil ,even though it's factory spec'ed, provided base oil and additives quality are equal.

What makes you think that the Sinopec #8 is spec'ed... either TO-2 or TO-4? ............ Could it be neither ?
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Originally Posted By: zeng
the manual give the good viscosities, but give several types of possible oils which have all a completely different add pack...

Care to further elaborate on this ?


My manual and several other manuals I found on ZL15 powershift transmission give:

- HM 46 oil, multigrade with viscosity like a 10w30 but
* Low add pack, with 400-600 ppm of zinc or zinc free
* non dispersant oil
* good shear stability

- Engine oil 10w30 or n°8 in China, similar to API CD
* strong add pack, with 1200-1400 ppm of zinc
* dispersant oil
* no good shear stability

- PTF oil n°8
* Unknown specs

- Turbine oil n°22
* Unknown specs


In front of that specs and with the viscosity needed for my climat, I can find here:

- Hydraulic oil HV 46: I think the add pack is to low.

- UTTO oil 5w30 TO-2/GL-4: add pack is nice but are more slippery than TO-4


Or, with a viscosity problem

- 10w and sae 30 TO-4: add pack and slippery are OK, but need oil change summer/winter...

Quote:

Transmission clutches are NOT designed for or around TO-4 or TO-2.


Yes, I know, they are designed for PTF chinese oil, but the problem is we don't know exactly what there is in.

Chinese oil, in my opinion, should be a copy or equivalent of a west oil, so the challenge is to guess "copy of which ?"

Quote:
What makes you think that the Sinopec #8 is spec'ed... either TO-2 or TO-4? ............ Could it be neither ?
blush.gif



And yes, can be a copy of nothing, but it changes nothing: as long we don't know what there is in, we walk in fog...

Quote:
It's the other way round, Caterpillar Inc came out with TO-2 and subsequently TO-4 transmission oil specifications to deal with their then previous and current production of Cat transmissions , more for components longevity/durability rather than CAFE-centric FE specs trending we see today.


- We knows TO-4 is backward compatible
- But cat says to not put TO-2 in new transmission designed for TO-4
- And CAT says to not use universal tractor oil, which have quite the same add pack as TO-4 but are just more slippery

So, is there a real problem with TO-2 in new trans, or it is just because TO-4 is "better" ?

If it is just a question of "better", no problem, like 8000 hours life instead of 16 000.

If we burn the clutch in 100 hours, it is a problem...

Quote:

In my view , ANY off-road powershift wet clutches would love to accept a TO-2/TO-4 oil , more than other non-powershift trans oil ,even though it's factory spec'ed, provided base oil and additives quality are equal.


I think the same, and my first choice is a UTTO TO-2, but just wish to be sure, as my opinion is just an opinion, and I would prefer find some proof
smile.gif




Btw, do you have an idea of the normal temperature of the hydraulic oil in summer on these kind of machine ?
 
Originally Posted By: miniac007
My manual and several other manuals I found on ZL15 powershift transmission give:

- HM 46 oil, multigrade with viscosity like a 10w30 but
* Low add pack, with 400-600 ppm of zinc or zinc free
* non dispersant oil
* good shear stability

- Engine oil 10w30 or n°8 in China, similar to API CD
* strong add pack, with 1200-1400 ppm of zinc
* dispersant oil
* no good shear stability

- PTF oil n°8
* Unknown specs

- Turbine oil n°22
* Unknown specs



Now, the Manufacturer specifies Hydraulic oils; Engine oils; PTF(?) oils of KV@100*C of 8 cSt and turbine oils ISO 22 ..... all of varying viscosity grades .......

Why ............... ??

NOT because of 'good' viscosities ............. for all 4 oils types and oil grades above ,at a specific steady state operating temperatures , would give you highly varying operating viscosities ....... some to the detriment of components longevity and internal leakage etc ..... as is the case with Turbine oil ISO 22.

The above oil recommendations is typical of Agricultural tractors( including western made) destined for markets (principally third world countries) where availability of 'suitable' oils is an issue.

In your market where powershift transmission oil types (including UTTO's) of appropriate additives for wet clutches is readily available at reasonable price .........then these 4 recommended oil types is a no-no.



Originally Posted By: miniac007
In front of that specs and with the viscosity needed for my climat, I can find here:

- Hydraulic oil HV 46: I think the add pack is to low.

- UTTO oil 5w30 TO-2/GL-4: add pack is nice but are more slippery than TO-4


Or, with a viscosity problem

- 10w and sae 30 TO-4: add pack and slippery are OK, but need oil change summer/winter...



I consider you fortunate to have a TO-2 at your disposal , for I would personally use ANY powershift transmission/UTTO oils (as claimed by oil blender) ........ whether or not it meets TO-2 requirements , as long as viscosity grades is taken cared off.


Originally Posted By: miniac007
Yes, I know, they are designed for PTF chinese oil, but the problem is we don't know exactly what there is in.



No, this off road powershift transmission is NOT designed for the 4 recommended oils, inc PTF's.

Instead of 'designing' an OEM proprietary powershift transmission oils, the Manufacturer is selecting these 4 oil types for its transmission , from amongst cheap and easily available (supposedly in third world countries) general and common oil types.

If the manufacturer selects a Turbine oil ISO 22 and Hydraulics 46 , any other powershift transmisson oils of appropriate viscosity grades whether or not comes with a TO-2/TO-4 specs , would beat the [censored] out of them , in terms of components durability.



Originally Posted By: miniac007
Chinese oil, in my opinion, should be a copy or equivalent of a west oil, so the challenge is to guess "copy of which ?
And yes, can be a copy of nothing, but it changes nothing: as long we don't know what there is in, we walk in fog...



Fair enough, for now, we don't know what's in PTF's, but we should know what's in Engine oils/Hydraulic oils/turbine oils recommended above.
For off road powershift transmissions applications , IME only a TO-4 beats a TO-2 , everything things else being equal.



Originally Posted By: miniac007
- We knows TO-4 is backward compatible
- But cat says to not put TO-2 in new transmission designed for TO-4
- And CAT says to not use universal tractor oil, which have quite the same add pack as TO-4 but are just more slippery
So, is there a real problem with TO-2 in new trans, or it is just because TO-4 is "better" ?
If it is just a question of "better", no problem, like 8000 hours life instead of 16 000.
If we burn the clutch in 100 hours, it is a problem...



This transmission manufacturer recommends Engine oils/Turbine oils/Hydraulic oils.

How can it be designed for TO-4 ???????????????

An TO-2 oil surely is a powershift transmission oil.

I believe it's better than any non powershift transmission oils, in terms of components durability.

However,TO-2 had been superceded by TO-4 .... as per your links.



Originally Posted By: miniac007
I think the same, and my first choice is a UTTO TO-2, but just wish to be sure, as my opinion is just an opinion, and I would prefer find some proof
smile.gif





Unfortunately I can't provide you documentary proofs ........... and it too is just my humble opinions and assesments ...... but .... base on years of applications evaluations etc....



Originally Posted By: miniac007
Btw, do you have an idea of the normal temperature of the hydraulic oil in summer on these kind of machine ?




At 300 operating hours per month of loading rock aggregates with typical 33*C ambients and Hydraulic 68, the oil sump temperature could go up to about 65-75* C in a 'good' system ...... and frequently goes into 80 ish *C.
 
Thank you for your help zeng, I agree with you, I can turn and return the question in my head, the UTTO 5w30 is the best option to test...

You know here in Sweden, it is not better than the third world for oils, as they are so taxed that I have to order them in Germany to get the right price... So I am limited to the online oil shops or ebay. It is OK for cars oils, but the choice for pro oils is limited...
 
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