Oil for Reman 3.5L Ecoboost - Timing Chain Stretch

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abs

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I am about to install a Ford zero hours reman engine to replace a damaged Ford Ecoboost engine. The original engine suffered what I now believe was a multi-staged failure mode which began with timing chain stretch causing a rattle at startup, eventually resulting in the timing chain driven water pump leaking coolant into the oil, causing the engine to overheat and bearings to have been damaged. I'd like to avoid the timing chain stretch issue (and the secondary effects) the with the reman engine this time around. So I need some recommendations for a very stout oil to use in this engine as well as thoughts on adding a secondary bypass filter. The failure of the engine occured with about 102k miles on it.

For historical reference, I broke the engine in on Motorcraft 5w-20 semi-syn for the first 10k miles then switched to Pennzoil Platinum/Ultra for most of the remaining oil changes. I had one run with Castrol Titanium (which performed poorly in this engine and was swapped early), a few changes with Valvoline full synthetic and then back to the Pennzoil. My most two recent oil changes were with Quaker State Ultimate Durability. At some point I also had a few OCIs where I increased the viscosity from 5w-20 to 5w-30 to see how the engine would run and noticed very little difference. At all times I stuck to 5k OCIs.

Mine is a 2010 model year Ecoboost with what I believe is the single link roller timing chain design. Beginning in 2011, Ford changed the timing chain design to a double wide chain with two links side by side. I do not know if the new one is a roller chain or not. I was able to x-ref the 2010 chain and determined it is the same chain that was used in the naturally aspirated Ford 3.5L engines in 2009 and 2010 if that helps. The oil spec in 2010 for the Ecoboost 3.5L engine was for a 5w-20, changed in in 2011 model year (with the new chain spec) to a 5w-30.

The chain issues started at around 75-80k miles with a rattle at startup. Many folks with Ecoboost engines have the issue and Ford does not have a TSB or root cause identified for it. It appears that a combination of chain stretch and guide wear results in the chain having slack at startup creating the noise and vibrations. I am convinced that this repeated vibration for about 20k miles is what caused the damage to the water pump resulting in the failure mode. As a side note, the Ecoboost in the F-150 (starting in 2012 model year) does have a TSB and chains are being replaced by Ford for stretch issues under warranty.

So, what can I do to prevent timing chain and guide damage from occurring again. The new engine is not gonna be cheap to say the least and need this one to last more than 100k miles.
 
Wow that sucks! Poor design and the end user gets stuck, this has happened a lot of times over the decades so it is nothing new. Anyway as far as prevention of timing chain stretch and damage? The only thing I can think of is drive it like an old lady drives going to church on Sundays. Other than that there isn't anything else that can be done, unless there is an improved chain and guide design that will work in your engine.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Wow that sucks! Poor design and the end user gets stuck, this has happened a lot of times over the decades so it is nothing new. Anyway as far as prevention of timing chain stretch and damage? The only thing I can think of is drive it like an old lady drives going to church on Sundays. Other than that there isn't anything else that can be done, unless there is an improved chain and guide design that will work in your engine.



I was thinking that one or more of the following steps could help:

- moving to a 0w-40 oil for faster cold flow and better protection at operating temps
- moving to an oil designed to handle small particles better (like diesel oils)
- moving to an oil with higher TBN
- moving to an oil with a better spec such as A5/B5 see here: Lubrizol Spec Map
- decrease OCI
- upgrading flow through oil filter to a synthetic media
- adding a bypass filter

Having said that, I do not want to create other issues with the new engine. I just need this one to last longer. DI engines have many issues to contend with and it's not clear to me which oils meet these needs best. I think we are going to see more and more issues with time as these engines rack up the miles.
 
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Originally Posted By: abs
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Wow that sucks! Poor design and the end user gets stuck, this has happened a lot of times over the decades so it is nothing new. Anyway as far as prevention of timing chain stretch and damage? The only thing I can think of is drive it like an old lady drives going to church on Sundays. Other than that there isn't anything else that can be done, unless there is an improved chain and guide design that will work in your engine.



I was thinking that one or more of the following steps could help:

- moving to a 0w-40 oil for faster cold flow and better protection at operating temps
- moving to an oil designed to handle small particles better (like diesel oils)
- moving to an oil with higher TBN
- moving to an oil with a better spec such as A5/B5 see here: Lubrizol Spec Map
- decrease OCI
- upgrading flow through oil filter to a synthetic media
- adding a bypass filter

Having said that, I do not want to create other issues with the new engine. I just need this one to last longer. DI engines have many issues to contend with and it's not clear to me which oils meet these needs best. I think we are going to see more and more issues with time as these engines rack up the miles.


I really don't think it has much to do with the oil to be honest. It is a poorly designed part. A shorter OCI can't hurt, slightly thicker oil won't hurt either. Driving like an old lady is probably the best thing for it, especially when the engine is cold.

I remember back in the day, gunning an engine, flooring it, forcing downshifts all took their toll on a timing chain. I would imagine these longer chains are even more prone to stretch than a small block Chevy from the 70's. I hope I don't catch any flack for that comment. You know the tech of today is better etc, etc, etc. It might very well be but.......

FTR-I'm not saying you abuse the engine. I just offered a suggestion.
 
Here is a link to someone else on the forum with a 2010 EB just like the one in my vehicle, same car actually (Ford Flex). And with 15k on the engine and 3k on the Motorcraft semi-syn 5w-20 oil, the UOA showed that the insolubles were fairly high. I'm thinking more that a bypass filter could help. Thoughts?

Link
 
This car has been driven just like all my other cars. I am pretty careful about maintenance. I do not beat on the engine when cold. I do have a "heavy foot" and like to drive fast but I also have young children in the car much of the time. I doubt my use of the car is beyond what most people do. I have towed flat bed trailers rented from U-Haul (what do they weigh - maybe 2000 pounds?) on a few occasions, total distance traveled with the hitch in use over the life of the car was maybe a few hundred miles.
 
I agree with demarpaint on this. There would've been no reason for Ford to go with a different chain design if issues weren't cropping up on a few (but enough to cause concern). Maybe an xw40 will help. Good luck and hoping for the best.
 
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Originally Posted By: abs
...

For historical reference, I broke the engine in on Motorcraft 5w-20 semi-syn for the first 10k miles then switched to Pennzoil Platinum/Ultra for most of the remaining oil changes. I had one run with Castrol Titanium (which performed poorly in this engine and was swapped early), a few changes with Valvoline full synthetic and then back to the Pennzoil. My most two recent oil changes were with Quaker State Ultimate Durability. At some point I also had a few OCIs where I increased the viscosity from 5w-20 to 5w-30 to see how the engine would run and noticed very little difference. At all times I stuck to 5k OCIs.
...

So, what can I do to prevent timing chain and guide damage from occurring again. The new engine is not gonna be cheap to say the least and need this one to last more than 100k miles.



IIRC this turbocharged, direct injection engine is specified for 5w30. I would stay away from the 20 weight oil entirely this time, and find a stout 5w30. Your interval of 5000 miles sounds right from what I've read here and elsewhere.
 
Your engine would do fine on Mobil 0w40 or castrol 0w40. I run it in my 2009 f150 modular. All the noisy timing parts in my engine are quiet with either.
 
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Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: abs
...

For historical reference, I broke the engine in on Motorcraft 5w-20 semi-syn for the first 10k miles then switched to Pennzoil Platinum/Ultra for most of the remaining oil changes. I had one run with Castrol Titanium (which performed poorly in this engine and was swapped early), a few changes with Valvoline full synthetic and then back to the Pennzoil. My most two recent oil changes were with Quaker State Ultimate Durability. At some point I also had a few OCIs where I increased the viscosity from 5w-20 to 5w-30 to see how the engine would run and noticed very little difference. At all times I stuck to 5k OCIs.
...

So, what can I do to prevent timing chain and guide damage from occurring again. The new engine is not gonna be cheap to say the least and need this one to last more than 100k miles.



IIRC this turbocharged, direct injection engine is specified for 5w30. I would stay away from the 20 weight oil entirely this time, and find a stout 5w30. Your interval of 5000 miles sounds right from what I've read here and elsewhere.


Thanks for the feedback. The 2010 spec called for 5w-20, they changed the spec in 2011 to 5w-30. The only obvious and major mechanical change in the engine for the 2011 MY was the new timing chain configuration described above. In 2011 there was a lot of confusion about the spec change, why it was done, etc. I think we now know why, Ford must have been aware of the timing chain concerns, fuel dilution issues, oil shearing issues, decided to reinforce the timing chain setup with a more stout configuration and increase the oil viscosity requirement. They never called for the 2010 MY to be upgraded to the new 5w-30 spec. Bottom line, I concur, a 5w-30 is probably the minimum for this engine and maybe a 5w-40 or 0w-40 could be appropriate. This is what I need some help figuring out.
 
Originally Posted By: tcp71
Your engine would do fine on Mobil 0w40 or castrol 0w40. I run it in my 2009 f150 modular. All the noisy timing parts in my engine are quiet with either.


Thank you for this feedback and input.
 
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Hmmn, not the first time I have read about the double row upgrade in OHC engines. The DOHC setup in the Jag allowed for take up with a mechanical adjuster. Chain stretch is wear, pure and simple. Tracks on bulldozers suffer from the same type of wear. Take up on a big scale is provided.
 
Originally Posted By: abs
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: abs
...

For historical reference, I broke the engine in on Motorcraft 5w-20 semi-syn for the first 10k miles then switched to Pennzoil Platinum/Ultra for most of the remaining oil changes. I had one run with Castrol Titanium (which performed poorly in this engine and was swapped early), a few changes with Valvoline full synthetic and then back to the Pennzoil. My most two recent oil changes were with Quaker State Ultimate Durability. At some point I also had a few OCIs where I increased the viscosity from 5w-20 to 5w-30 to see how the engine would run and noticed very little difference. At all times I stuck to 5k OCIs.
...

So, what can I do to prevent timing chain and guide damage from occurring again. The new engine is not gonna be cheap to say the least and need this one to last more than 100k miles.



IIRC this turbocharged, direct injection engine is specified for 5w30. I would stay away from the 20 weight oil entirely this time, and find a stout 5w30. Your interval of 5000 miles sounds right from what I've read here and elsewhere.


Thanks for the feedback. The 2010 spec called for 5w-20, they changed the spec in 2011 to 5w-30. The only obvious and major mechanical change in the engine for the 2011 MY was the new timing chain configuration described above. In 2011 there was a lot of confusion about the spec change, why it was done, etc. I think we now know why, Ford must have been aware of the timing chain concerns, fuel dilution issues, oil shearing issues, decided to reinforce the timing chain setup with a more stout configuration and increase the oil viscosity requirement. They never called for the 2010 MY to be upgraded to the new 5w-30 spec. Bottom line, I concur, a 5w-30 is probably the minimum for this engine and maybe a 5w-40 or 0w-40 could be appropriate. This is what I need some help figuring out.


Welcome. Wherever I've read about timing chain wear issues, a thicker oil has always helped with shearing and longevity.

tcp71's suggestion of M1 or Castrol 0w40 isn't a bad idea and is certainly worth a try. You've tested the engine with 5w30 and found no adverse characteristics, taking that basic strategy one grade higher might be a very good thing.
 
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Why is everyone trying to fix a mechanical problem with oil?

The next time your car has startup issues, stop driving it and get a new timing chain.
 
As I said the ticker oil might help, especially since the engine is DI, but the real problem at hand is a poorly designed part. The only thing IMO that is going to make a major improvement on extending life is driving this thing like an old lady. Getting stuck with something that has poorly designed parts sucks. Hopefully you have better luck this time around!
 
Originally Posted By: andyd
Hmmn, not the first time I have read about the double row upgrade in OHC engines. The DOHC setup in the Jag allowed for take up with a mechanical adjuster. Chain stretch is wear, pure and simple. Tracks on bulldozers suffer from the same type of wear. Take up on a big scale is provided.


This engine has a spring loaded mechanical adjuster with 10 locking steps in it. When the engine is operating the adjuster is pressurized with oil. I agree 100% this is a wear issue. Another consideration is that on the Ecoboost the high pressure fuel pump is driven mechanically off a camshaft on the front of the engine. I'm sure it creates additional load and harmonic vibrations (at specific RPMs) on the timing mechanisms creating additional wear concerns for the chain.
 
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