My son just got a new Chrysler 200S with the Pentastar 3.6L V6. 5W-20 is the recommended oil, but the owners manual states that 5W-30 is acceptable. We used to run 20W-50 back in the day when 5W-30 was spec'd. Engines ran fine and lasted forever, although I'm sure it cost us some MPGs.
5w30 in a spec 5w20
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Originally Posted By: sds911
I also would check the Mobil and Shell oil selector for several other countries -- and you often will see a higher weight oil recommendation versus USA 0W20 or 5W20.
Mobil 1 website indicates their 0W30 can be used in my Subaru which is spec'd for 0W20 (although the manual allows for top off with an xx-30, or xx-40 weight too).
What he said above.
The /20 oils are for fuel savings for the automakers to meet, CAFE.
Its not that the /20 oils are better for your car, the /20 oils help meet mandated mileage requirements for the entire line of the automakers products.
The fuel savings over a /30 oil are only fractions to the consumer but when added up over hundreds of thousands of vehicles to the automaker its a cheap way to help them meet standards.
It is correct, the same engine in other countries often recommend a higher weight oil because CAFE is a US requirement and the automaker does not have that requirement outside the USA, even Mexico. So go and use a /30 oil, more then likely better for your engine too.
CAFE link
I also would check the Mobil and Shell oil selector for several other countries -- and you often will see a higher weight oil recommendation versus USA 0W20 or 5W20.
Mobil 1 website indicates their 0W30 can be used in my Subaru which is spec'd for 0W20 (although the manual allows for top off with an xx-30, or xx-40 weight too).
What he said above.
The /20 oils are for fuel savings for the automakers to meet, CAFE.
Its not that the /20 oils are better for your car, the /20 oils help meet mandated mileage requirements for the entire line of the automakers products.
The fuel savings over a /30 oil are only fractions to the consumer but when added up over hundreds of thousands of vehicles to the automaker its a cheap way to help them meet standards.
It is correct, the same engine in other countries often recommend a higher weight oil because CAFE is a US requirement and the automaker does not have that requirement outside the USA, even Mexico. So go and use a /30 oil, more then likely better for your engine too.
CAFE link
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Originally Posted By: alarmguy
What he said above.
The /20 oils are for fuel savings for the automakers to meet, CAFE.
Its not that the /20 oils are better for your car, the /20 oils help meet mandated mileage requirements for the entire line of the automakers products.
The fuel savings over a /30 oil are only fractions to the consumer but when added up over hundreds of thousands of vehicles to the automaker its a cheap way to help them meet standards.
It is correct, the same engine in other countries often recommend a higher weight oil because CAFE is a US requirement and the automaker does not have that requirement outside the USA, even Mexico. So go and use a /30 oil, more then likely better for your engine too.
CAFE link
Has this actually been proven, or just speculation? I thought people here liked to keep things scientific or proven...
What he said above.
The /20 oils are for fuel savings for the automakers to meet, CAFE.
Its not that the /20 oils are better for your car, the /20 oils help meet mandated mileage requirements for the entire line of the automakers products.
The fuel savings over a /30 oil are only fractions to the consumer but when added up over hundreds of thousands of vehicles to the automaker its a cheap way to help them meet standards.
It is correct, the same engine in other countries often recommend a higher weight oil because CAFE is a US requirement and the automaker does not have that requirement outside the USA, even Mexico. So go and use a /30 oil, more then likely better for your engine too.
CAFE link
Has this actually been proven, or just speculation? I thought people here liked to keep things scientific or proven...
It's been proven
a) by the existence of CAFE
b) before posting, then you surely checked the link that was provided by the proponent...that's the NHTSA (safety) who administer it;
c) by the words of the OEMs in their description of why they choose lower viscosity oils; and
d) by the oil manufacturers, who describe how they are attempting to provide better wear in an environment of reduced viscosity;
Surely that would provide a "reasonable man" trigger to you.
a) by the existence of CAFE
b) before posting, then you surely checked the link that was provided by the proponent...that's the NHTSA (safety) who administer it;
c) by the words of the OEMs in their description of why they choose lower viscosity oils; and
d) by the oil manufacturers, who describe how they are attempting to provide better wear in an environment of reduced viscosity;
Surely that would provide a "reasonable man" trigger to you.
Have there been any tests to show increased wear by using xW20 oils (in vehicles that recommend them) vs using thicker oils?
Have any manufacturers agreed that wear is increased with using xW20 oils instead of other oils, in normal operating conditions?
Have any oil manufacturers agreed that there is increased wear with using xW20 oils (when recommended) over thicker oils? Or that thicker oils decrease wear in engines that specify xW20 oils?
This looks like a bunch of assumptions to me. Similar to the likes of a rape case that contains no actual evidence....
*edit*
Also xW20 oils are recommended in many vehicles world wide. Not isolated to the USA and the CAFE.
Have any manufacturers agreed that wear is increased with using xW20 oils instead of other oils, in normal operating conditions?
Have any oil manufacturers agreed that there is increased wear with using xW20 oils (when recommended) over thicker oils? Or that thicker oils decrease wear in engines that specify xW20 oils?
This looks like a bunch of assumptions to me. Similar to the likes of a rape case that contains no actual evidence....
*edit*
Also xW20 oils are recommended in many vehicles world wide. Not isolated to the USA and the CAFE.
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Well the whole purpose of a lighter oil seems to be for improved fuel economy, without increased wear.
The people against the lighter oils are claiming increased wear, without any proof though.
I don't have the resources to provide any personal testing myself.
The people against the lighter oils are claiming increased wear, without any proof though.
I don't have the resources to provide any personal testing myself.
Originally Posted By: LubeLuke
Well the whole purpose of a lighter oil seems to be for improved fuel economy, without increased wear.
The people against the lighter oils are claiming increased wear, without any proof though.
I don't have the resources to provide any personal testing myself.
No, the premise offered by the people in my list are improved economy while providing "acceptable" wear...that's their words, as opposed to your premise.
I'll drop my suggestion back to the equivalent of yours...provide evidence of equal wear while offering improved economy.
Now that should be easy.
Well the whole purpose of a lighter oil seems to be for improved fuel economy, without increased wear.
The people against the lighter oils are claiming increased wear, without any proof though.
I don't have the resources to provide any personal testing myself.
No, the premise offered by the people in my list are improved economy while providing "acceptable" wear...that's their words, as opposed to your premise.
I'll drop my suggestion back to the equivalent of yours...provide evidence of equal wear while offering improved economy.
Now that should be easy.
I think we are going round in circles.
It can be proved that lighter oils increase fuel economy.
'We' cannot prove that these engines experience increased wear from the xW20 oils.
'We' cannot prove that these engines experience increased wear from the heavier oils.
It can be proved that lighter oils increase fuel economy.
'We' cannot prove that these engines experience increased wear from the xW20 oils.
'We' cannot prove that these engines experience increased wear from the heavier oils.
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Originally Posted By: cptbarkey
there are a few engines that would not like it, a hemi with mds, and the chain driven subaru's. probably others but in general 5w30 will be fine in yours.
How does this myth continue to perpetuate?
If you understand that viscosity changes massively more with temperature than the difference between the various grades at 100C you know this cannot be true.
In the winter, I was effectively running a much heavier oil in my MDS-equipped Charger than I am right now due to the difference in ambient temperature. The MDS worked properly then and works properly now. No difference in operation.
In my M5, I am running a much heavier oil until my oil is "up to temp". Yet its VCT (VANOS) operates fine. It also operates fine on 10w-60, as the earlier cars with the same VCT system spec'd.
I'm not sure what part about a Subaru having a timing chain makes your point, but I would love to hear it.
there are a few engines that would not like it, a hemi with mds, and the chain driven subaru's. probably others but in general 5w30 will be fine in yours.
How does this myth continue to perpetuate?
If you understand that viscosity changes massively more with temperature than the difference between the various grades at 100C you know this cannot be true.
In the winter, I was effectively running a much heavier oil in my MDS-equipped Charger than I am right now due to the difference in ambient temperature. The MDS worked properly then and works properly now. No difference in operation.
In my M5, I am running a much heavier oil until my oil is "up to temp". Yet its VCT (VANOS) operates fine. It also operates fine on 10w-60, as the earlier cars with the same VCT system spec'd.
I'm not sure what part about a Subaru having a timing chain makes your point, but I would love to hear it.
I am currently on a run of $1 AZ 5w-30 Edge EP in my sig Honda and it makes no difference. Fuel economy is up 6% most likely due to the increased ambient temps and removal of winter tires. No difference in performance. Last two 10k runs was QSUD 0w-20.
I have also changed my driving style while accelerating giving more throttle opening. The "egg under your pedal" idea is a myth, at least on my car. Adjusting the nut behind the wheel is the best way to bet better fuel economy.
Honda spec's a ACEA A1/B1 oil pretty much everywhere else in the world so that's what mine is getting now. Winter I will probably go back to a 0W-20 as I have a bunch in my stash.
As for the warranty thing...you have to decide that. My Accord is under the CPO warranty right now and I feel fine with it. I'm also running 5w-40 HDEO in my Honda mower that's under warranty and it's happier.
I have also changed my driving style while accelerating giving more throttle opening. The "egg under your pedal" idea is a myth, at least on my car. Adjusting the nut behind the wheel is the best way to bet better fuel economy.
Honda spec's a ACEA A1/B1 oil pretty much everywhere else in the world so that's what mine is getting now. Winter I will probably go back to a 0W-20 as I have a bunch in my stash.
As for the warranty thing...you have to decide that. My Accord is under the CPO warranty right now and I feel fine with it. I'm also running 5w-40 HDEO in my Honda mower that's under warranty and it's happier.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: LubeLuke
Well the whole purpose of a lighter oil seems to be for improved fuel economy, without increased wear.
The people against the lighter oils are claiming increased wear, without any proof though.
I don't have the resources to provide any personal testing myself.
No, the premise offered by the people in my list are improved economy while providing "acceptable" wear...that's their words, as opposed to your premise.
I'll drop my suggestion back to the equivalent of yours...provide evidence of equal wear while offering improved economy.
Now that should be easy.
If your proof is that they use loose wording then that's pretty weak. You have any SAE papers stating that low viscosity oils cause more wear than thicker viscosity oils but within an "acceptable" range?
Go have at it!
Originally Posted By: LubeLuke
Well the whole purpose of a lighter oil seems to be for improved fuel economy, without increased wear.
The people against the lighter oils are claiming increased wear, without any proof though.
I don't have the resources to provide any personal testing myself.
No, the premise offered by the people in my list are improved economy while providing "acceptable" wear...that's their words, as opposed to your premise.
I'll drop my suggestion back to the equivalent of yours...provide evidence of equal wear while offering improved economy.
Now that should be easy.
If your proof is that they use loose wording then that's pretty weak. You have any SAE papers stating that low viscosity oils cause more wear than thicker viscosity oils but within an "acceptable" range?
Go have at it!
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: LubeLuke
Well the whole purpose of a lighter oil seems to be for improved fuel economy, without increased wear.
The people against the lighter oils are claiming increased wear, without any proof though.
I don't have the resources to provide any personal testing myself.
No, the premise offered by the people in my list are improved economy while providing "acceptable" wear...that's their words, as opposed to your premise.
I'll drop my suggestion back to the equivalent of yours...provide evidence of equal wear while offering improved economy.
Now that should be easy.
This is a small test, not definitive proof, but evidence that it can be done.
https://youtu.be/hWlRjvVNEIw
Originally Posted By: LubeLuke
Well the whole purpose of a lighter oil seems to be for improved fuel economy, without increased wear.
The people against the lighter oils are claiming increased wear, without any proof though.
I don't have the resources to provide any personal testing myself.
No, the premise offered by the people in my list are improved economy while providing "acceptable" wear...that's their words, as opposed to your premise.
I'll drop my suggestion back to the equivalent of yours...provide evidence of equal wear while offering improved economy.
Now that should be easy.
This is a small test, not definitive proof, but evidence that it can be done.
https://youtu.be/hWlRjvVNEIw
Originally Posted By: LubeLuke
I think we are going round in circles.
It can be proved that lighter oils increase fuel economy.
'We' cannot prove that these engines experience increased wear from the xW20 oils.
'We' cannot prove that these engines experience increased wear from the heavier oils.
What do you mean by "We"?
If you mean people on this board, then your first point is totally false because nobody on this board yet claimed to poses laboratory grade equipment to measure fuel consumption difference between oil grades. Just like nobody here yet claimed to strip down two identical engines, using different grades of oil and measure the difference in wear.
But like many people here say about the fuel economy gains "just because you cannot measure the difference at the pump, doesn't mean it's not there", the same principle applies to wear.
I think we are going round in circles.
It can be proved that lighter oils increase fuel economy.
'We' cannot prove that these engines experience increased wear from the xW20 oils.
'We' cannot prove that these engines experience increased wear from the heavier oils.
What do you mean by "We"?
If you mean people on this board, then your first point is totally false because nobody on this board yet claimed to poses laboratory grade equipment to measure fuel consumption difference between oil grades. Just like nobody here yet claimed to strip down two identical engines, using different grades of oil and measure the difference in wear.
But like many people here say about the fuel economy gains "just because you cannot measure the difference at the pump, doesn't mean it's not there", the same principle applies to wear.
I did it with my Corolla which is specd for 0/5w20 in North America. I simply followed the wide variety of usable oil weights from the World owners manual and not the altered North American users manual. So in a way I did, but I didn't.
A little digging might find that your engine actually has a broader range of usable oils if that engine is produced world wide.
A little digging might find that your engine actually has a broader range of usable oils if that engine is produced world wide.
Is it not also true that the 5w30 generally have more ZDDP compared to 5w20 or 0w20 for typical brands like m1, castrol, penzoil plat, etc.
So it may not just be the weight but the add packs. I'll still run 0w20, since my UOA results are good, but may increase to the 0w30 for summer or mountain driving.
I'm sure my engine will outlast my ownership of the XV cross trek. For the 911 it's 5w40 with higher ZDDP for now per some well known Porsche engine shops/developers.
So it may not just be the weight but the add packs. I'll still run 0w20, since my UOA results are good, but may increase to the 0w30 for summer or mountain driving.
I'm sure my engine will outlast my ownership of the XV cross trek. For the 911 it's 5w40 with higher ZDDP for now per some well known Porsche engine shops/developers.
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KrisZ I really hope you are joking. I thought it was common knowledge that a lighter oil almost always reduces load on the engine. Otherwise there really would be no discussion.
All you need is a Dynamometer. Any engine tuner has the equipment to measure fuel usage. The injectors do this for you.... If they didn't then your engine would surely fail prematurely. If you were really anal then you could measure the fuel used from the tank too.
These tests are literally all over the place and virtually unanimous.
My engine builder has ran tests on this himself and the results are the same.
P.S I am using a 5w40 oil in my current car. My 4wd uses a 5w20.
All you need is a Dynamometer. Any engine tuner has the equipment to measure fuel usage. The injectors do this for you.... If they didn't then your engine would surely fail prematurely. If you were really anal then you could measure the fuel used from the tank too.
These tests are literally all over the place and virtually unanimous.
My engine builder has ran tests on this himself and the results are the same.
P.S I am using a 5w40 oil in my current car. My 4wd uses a 5w20.
Originally Posted By: LubeLuke
KrisZ I really hope you are joking.
Totally serious here. If you can show me how the equipment you mentioned that if properly calibrated runs on a 10-15% margin of error can measure fuel consumption difference between grades that usually runs in fractions of a percentage point, I'm all ears.
KrisZ I really hope you are joking.
Totally serious here. If you can show me how the equipment you mentioned that if properly calibrated runs on a 10-15% margin of error can measure fuel consumption difference between grades that usually runs in fractions of a percentage point, I'm all ears.
I'm not sure why you think a fuel injector runs on a 10-15% margin of error. Even a carburettor is more accurate than that.
An engine dynamometer is used most of the time by my engineer.
All that needs to happen is decide on a set rpm for the engine and hold the engine there for a set period of time. A decrease in engine load will require less fuel.
I think you may need to contact Denso, Bosch or one of the other manufacturers if you want confirmation of the exact tolerances for their injectors.
An engine dynamometer is used most of the time by my engineer.
All that needs to happen is decide on a set rpm for the engine and hold the engine there for a set period of time. A decrease in engine load will require less fuel.
I think you may need to contact Denso, Bosch or one of the other manufacturers if you want confirmation of the exact tolerances for their injectors.
Where are your results then?
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