Manual transmission additive help

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My 2003 Saturn in the owner's manual recommended ATF also. I had the transmission fluid changed a while back. The service manager recommended a Valvoline product rather than ATF. I had the fluid changed and it works okay but it seems to shift a little slower especially in cold weather.

Maybe all they had when they came out with these manual transmissions was ATF. But if it worked okay and a person was able to get several years of service and 100,000, 200,000 miles out of the vehicle, that is good service. Sure, maybe better products are better today than the ATF at the time. I am not so sure those products are really better however.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Mystic
Heck, demarpaint, I guess you were supposed to be using liquid gold or something. We probably need to consult with Skyship. Is he still around? The last I heard he was still riding the bus that they were using to test transmission fluids.

If the recommended fluid was working and you have been able to drive that vehicle for so long, why would it have been necessary to use something more expensive? The recommended fluid worked. I sure as heck would not now add some expensive transmission fluid to a 27 year old vehicle. If that vehicle stopped running tomorrow morning you have gotten your money's worth of service from it.




I'll have to look for the papers and see since badtlc won't tell me.
frown.gif
LOL Maybe a 30 grade oil, or a 5W30? No way is gear oil going to work in it, especially in the winter. I know a few people with old F-150's with the same tranny using ATF logging over 200,000 and 300,000 miles. The M5OD wasn't any great transmission from what I've heard, but mine has been fine.


Aside from the crazy high 1st and reverse the M5odR2(mine is in a 92 4x4 300 six,the R1 came in Rangers) is a pretty solid trans,IF properly maintained.Over 200k on mine and sometimes worked way harder than it should be.Solid,smooth shifting,all i need.

Now the ZF5-47/42, thats! a great trans for a swap.Crossmember and driveshaft mods needed for that,though.
 
Redline claims their D4 ATF meets GL-4 specs for manual transmissions.
Quote:

Our most versatile ATF, use where Dexron III®, Dexron II®, Mercon® and Mercon V® fluids are recommended, provides a GL-4 level of gear protection
Popular applications: Toyota Type T-III and T-IV, Honda ATF-Z1, NissanMatic D, J & K, Diamond SP-II, SP-III, Mazda ATF M-V, most BMW, Audi, VW automatic transmissions
Also used with manual transmissions and transaxles like T-5, T-45, T-56 and late-model BMW
Excellent cold weather operation


"late model BMW"? So much for this..
Originally Posted By: badtlc
ATFs don't have the proper additives for ideal synchro performance and protection. They were merely spec'd because they were the only thin fluids to pick from. Again, manufacturers stopped spec'ing ATF in an MTX for a reason


If the OP is having problems i would stay away from additives except for maybe the one from lubeguard or try a light manual fluid. No reason to believe the ATF is deficient in some whay if that is the fluid spec'd for it.
 
Originally Posted By: FL_Rob
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Mystic
Heck, demarpaint, I guess you were supposed to be using liquid gold or something. We probably need to consult with Skyship. Is he still around? The last I heard he was still riding the bus that they were using to test transmission fluids.

If the recommended fluid was working and you have been able to drive that vehicle for so long, why would it have been necessary to use something more expensive? The recommended fluid worked. I sure as heck would not now add some expensive transmission fluid to a 27 year old vehicle. If that vehicle stopped running tomorrow morning you have gotten your money's worth of service from it.




I'll have to look for the papers and see since badtlc won't tell me.
frown.gif
LOL Maybe a 30 grade oil, or a 5W30? No way is gear oil going to work in it, especially in the winter. I know a few people with old F-150's with the same tranny using ATF logging over 200,000 and 300,000 miles. The M5OD wasn't any great transmission from what I've heard, but mine has been fine.


Aside from the crazy high 1st and reverse the M5odR2(mine is in a 92 4x4 300 six,the R1 came in Rangers) is a pretty solid trans,IF properly maintained.Over 200k on mine and sometimes worked way harder than it should be.Solid,smooth shifting,all i need.

Now the ZF5-47/42, thats! a great trans for a swap.Crossmember and driveshaft mods needed for that,though.


I'll add you to the list of people who have made it over 200K with one.

I do plan on a clutch job this spring or summer, that's about all the repair work I've encountered so far with it. My only beef is if the slave cylinder fails the tranny has to come out. But a lot of units are made that way.

I heard a a lot of good stories about the ZF5-47/42. I never had the opp to drive something with it though.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

I'll have to look for the papers and see since badtlc won't tell me.
frown.gif
LOL Maybe a 30 grade oil, or a 5W30? No way is gear oil going to work in it, especially in the winter. I know a few people with old F-150's with the same tranny using ATF logging over 200,000 and 300,000 miles. The M5OD wasn't any great transmission from what I've heard, but mine has been fine.


You play dumb as well as anyone. You know exactly where to find them. You aren't new here.

Molakule's: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1231182/Synchromesh_Manual_Transmissio

Redline: http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/MTL and MT-90 Tech Info.pdf
 
Your cherry picking here. According to Redline late model BMW specs ATF (they could just as easily spec'd MTF) as does the transmission the OP has.
If the unit is spec for ATF whats the problem?
 
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

I'll have to look for the papers and see since badtlc won't tell me.
frown.gif
LOL Maybe a 30 grade oil, or a 5W30? No way is gear oil going to work in it, especially in the winter. I know a few people with old F-150's with the same tranny using ATF logging over 200,000 and 300,000 miles. The M5OD wasn't any great transmission from what I've heard, but mine has been fine.


You play dumb as well as anyone. You know exactly where to find them. You aren't new here.

Molakule's: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1231182/Synchromesh_Manual_Transmissio

Redline: http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/MTL and MT-90 Tech Info.pdf


You really don't want to go one on one with an insult war do you?

Ford issued TSB 871814 which stated to use Mercon ATF to improve cold weather shift effort and synchronizer operation. This back specs 88 and prior E series, F series, Broncho, Ranger, Bronco II and Aerostar. The van I'm talking about is a 1988. So do believe you or Ford's TSB?
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

You really don't want to go one on one with an insult war do you?

Ford issued TSB 871814 which stated to use Mercon ATF to improve cold weather shift effort and synchronizer operation. This back specs 88 and prior E series, F series, Broncho, Ranger, Bronco II and Aerostar. The van I'm talking about is a 1988. So do believe you or Ford's TSB?


That TSB was issued in 1987!!! Synchromesh MTFs were developed over the last 10-15 years.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Your cherry picking here. According to Redline late model BMW specs ATF (they could just as easily spec'd MTF) as does the transmission the OP has.
If the unit is spec for ATF whats the problem?


Read the papers. They clearly outline why the additives in MTFs are better for synchronized transmissions than ATF. ATF is something that "works" but is far from ideal.

Late model BMWs use a thin MTF, 75W, not ATF.
 
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

You really don't want to go one on one with an insult war do you?

Ford issued TSB 871814 which stated to use Mercon ATF to improve cold weather shift effort and synchronizer operation. This back specs 88 and prior E series, F series, Broncho, Ranger, Bronco II and Aerostar. The van I'm talking about is a 1988. So do believe you or Ford's TSB?


That TSB was issued in 1987!!! Synchromesh MTFs were developed over the last 10-15 years.


Ford is still stating to use ATF in that unit. If someone reads this and feels they want to use something else in theirs they can can read the papers and use what ever they like. I'm sticking with what's working for me.
 
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: Trav
Your cherry picking here. According to Redline late model BMW specs ATF (they could just as easily spec'd MTF) as does the transmission the OP has.
If the unit is spec for ATF whats the problem?


Read the papers. They clearly outline why the additives in MTFs are better for synchronized transmissions than ATF. ATF is something that "works" but is far from ideal.

Late model BMWs use a thin MTF, 75W, not ATF.


Sure about that? You cite Redline so here is info from Redline. Argue with them, or would you prefer to argue with BMW?
Like i told you before in another thread. Don't shoot the messenger!

http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=13
Originally Posted By: Redline
Manual Transmissions:
Through 1985: MTL
1986 through 1992: may have a label affixed to the passenger side bell housing
- Green Label: MT-90
- Red Label: D4ATF
- No Label: MTL
Green and Red labeled transmissions have 17mm external hex drain and fill plugs.
Non-labeled transmissions have 17mm internal hex drain and fill plugs.
1993-on: D4ATF
2006 Xi Transmissions: D6ATF



http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=13
 
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Originally Posted By: Trav


Sure about that? You cite Redline so here is info from Redline. Argue with them, or would you prefer to argue with BMW?
Like i told you before in another thread. Don't shoot the messenger!

http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=13


Yes, 100%. Redline doesn't currently offer a GL-4 MTF in the lower ATF viscosity range. They consider the add pack of their D4 ATF to be suitable at meeting the GL-4 requirements. If Redline ever decided to make an MT-75, they'd recommend it and not D4.

BMW uses fluids like Pentosin MTF2 (75W-80, GL-4 but VERY thin ~ 6-7 cSt). BMW does not spec ATF.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: Trav


Sure about that? You cite Redline so here is info from Redline. Argue with them, or would you prefer to argue with BMW?
Like i told you before in another thread. Don't shoot the messenger!

http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=13


Yes, 100%. Redline doesn't currently offer a GL-4 MTF in the lower ATF viscosity range. They consider the add pack of their D4 ATF to be suitable at meeting the GL-4 requirements. If Redline ever decided to make an MT-75, they'd recommend it and not D4.

BMW uses fluids like Pentosin MTF2 (75W-80, GL-4 but VERY thin ~ 6-7 cSt). BMW does not spec ATF.


And this a point I have made over the years, that is, as to whether D4 ATF is suitable in an MT specing (but not necessarily requiring), ATF.

My position is D4 ATF should not be considered a GL-4 rated, 7.X cSt dedicated MTL because of two factors: 1) it does not contain a high enough level of Anti-Wear chemistry for MTL's, and 2) it does not contain the correct MT friction modifiers for MT's.

Now, if you want a Redline product that can be considered to have a GL-4 protection rating, Redline's PSF

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=79&pcid=27

does have a AW package to support that, but does not have the specific friction modifiers needed for MT's.

Analyze any of these these 7.5 cSt dedicate MT fluids:

Ravenol MTF-2

Honda MTF

BMW (Pentosin MTF 2) MTF-LT-1, 2

and compare them against D4 and you will see the D4 AW package does not support the claim of a GL-4 rating.

So why do many OEM's spec ATF? Because it shifts better in cold weather.

So can ATF be used in MT transmissions speced for ATF? Sure, but why not use a 7.5 cSt dedicated MT that was designed for smooth shifting and better wear protection which is, in my opinion, superior to ATF's.

In addition, some OEM's and tranny manf. are now specing dedicated MTLs in lieu of their previous ATF specs, now that dedicated 7.5 cSt fluids are available.
 
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Quote:
Just an additional comment:

We should emphasize again that the GL-4 rating for gear lubes is primarily a gear and bearing protection rating for systems that are not as heavily loaded as those found in hypoid differentials or Heavy Duty truck transmissions.

It should NOT be assumed than ANY gear lube with the GL-4 rating is suitable for Manual Transmissons.

Dedicated or application specific MTL's not only have the necessary Anti-Wear chemistry to attain a GL-4 rating, but also have the correct viscosity and friction modification for synchronized transmissions.

Bottom line is, there is more to a Dedicated or application specific MTL than just a GL-4 rating.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Your cherry picking here. According to Redline late model BMW specs ATF (they could just as easily spec'd MTF) as does the transmission the OP has.
If the unit is spec for ATF whats the problem?


Agreed, badtlc constantly recommends non approved fluids to people. They might be better, but why risk using a fluid that is not OEM approved?
 
Okay buts lets look at something here just in the interest of gaining some insight.
This is a list of BMW cars (just one example as is the unit the OP is posting about).

Notice the 2006 ix330 is absent from the list of BMW cars listed for their BMW 83220309031 LT2 gear oil.
For some reason this particular vehicle is being left out. It uses ATF.

http://www.eeuroparts.com/Parts/29783/Ma...CFYMdgQodF3YAEw

http://www.carpartsdiscount.com/auto/parts/catalog/bmw~330xi~2006.html?3593=114957&
3671=1002&gclid=CKTuy8Pat8MCFczm7Aod5HUAGg

The transmission the OP has and Demarpaint uses in his van seems to fall in a similar category.
Ford still specs ATF for this particular transmission for some reason.
I have no idea why, or why not they don't spec a regular or a light MTF, it would be pure speculation on my part.

I have read the Ford TSB and they claim better cold shifting and synchronization and actually back spec'd the use of ATF in units they had spec'd MTF for these reasons.
So here is the dilemma. The manufacturer isn't always right, they make mistakes and when they do they correct it by issuing a TSB to publish what engineering believes is the best course of action to correct the now known issue.

I respect your opinion and understand your points, i am not arguing with either badtlc or you. I am just an old wrench turner reading info and deciphering it as best i can.
I believe the metallurgy or clearances in these units might play some roll in the reason.

If my dad was still alive i would ask him, he was a machinist by trade (when he was younger) but had two degrees in metallurgy. He was my go to source for this sort of stuff.
I did learn a little over the years about heat treating, turning, material selection and flame spraying but i am not qualified in any way, i can only read the reference materials he left me.

IMHO the answer probably lies in the material selection of the syncro's and clearances involved.

21.gif
 
Originally Posted By: nwjones18
I posted earlier about the shifter bushings.. Here is a video on how to replace it. Like I said it fixed my truck and I've seen it cure shifting problems in other trucks. I'd strongly recommend taking a look at them. The fluid used in it is not the problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9vow60baZo


I haven't had to do those yet. Thanks for posting the video, I book marked it for if/when I have to replace mine. What are you using for a fluid in your M5OD?
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: nwjones18
I posted earlier about the shifter bushings.. Here is a video on how to replace it. Like I said it fixed my truck and I've seen it cure shifting problems in other trucks. I'd strongly recommend taking a look at them. The fluid used in it is not the problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9vow60baZo


I haven't had to do those yet. Thanks for posting the video, I book marked it for if/when I have to replace mine. What are you using for a fluid in your M5OD?


I have syncromesh in mine. I was trying to fix some of the problems that the shifter bushings cured.. It seems to work fine but I bet it'd shift as well with ATF now that I have the new bushings in it.
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Agreed, badtlc constantly recommends non approved fluids to people. They might be better, but why risk using a fluid that is not OEM approved?


Oh the horror.

We all spend hours on here researching this stuff so we can ignore new technology and just use what the owners manual recommends.
 
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