Have to eat crow

[CapitalTruck]

So, I was on here espousing the merits of using the larger PF63 in the place of the PF48 on my 4.8 V8. However, I thought I heard valve noise at startup. I had never heard this before. Maybe it was my imagination I thought... So, I changed the oil over the weekend and put on a PF48 I had laying around. Guess what...startup valve train noise gone. I couldn't figure this out, because it's an inverted filter that by its very nature won't have a reliance on an anti-drainback valve (so, can't be a defective anti-drainback valve). But I'm telling you, it wasn't my imagination, it was for real. I'm going back to the recommended PF48. Luckily I just bought that [censored] ton of PF63's. Make nice Christmas ornaments I guess.

 

[901Memphis]

Did you use the same oil?

 

[CapitalTruck]

Yes, same oil...

 

[splinter]

Originally Posted By: CapitalTruck
2013 Silverado 4.8L 25k mi - Mobil 1 5w30, ACDelco PF63

Time to 'fix' your signature, eh?

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: CapitalTruck
So, I was on here espousing the merits of using the larger PF63 in the place of the PF48 on my 4.8 V8. However, I thought I heard valve noise at startup. I had never heard this before. Maybe it was my imagination I thought... So, I changed the oil over the weekend and put on a PF48 I had laying around. Guess what...startup valve train noise gone. I couldn't figure this out, because it's an inverted filter that by its very nature won't have a reliance on an anti-drainback valve (so, can't be a defective anti-drainback valve). But I'm telling you, it wasn't my imagination, it was for real. I'm going back to the recommended PF48. Luckily I just bought that [censored] ton of PF63's. Make nice Christmas ornaments I guess.


Return them to Wallymart.

 

[daves87rs]

Strange....

 

[tcp71]

An anti drain back valve doesn't just keep oil in the filter, but also in the engine passages above it. The whole system can't drain oil back into the sump.

 

[dnewton3]

There is a difference between orientation of the ADBV and the location of the filter.

When the filter is mounted low, oil will attempt to drain back to the filter. The orientation of the filter (right side up, upside down, sideways, canted) has no affect on oil trying to drain back; it will always try to drain back after shut-down. Therefore the oil pressure at drainback will be resisted if the ADBV is present and functional. And it won't matter what orientation the filter is sitting in.

However, the LOCATION of the filter (side of the block, under the block, high above the block) will alter the attempt of oil to drain back. This may or may not make an ADBV moot. There are some engines (Toyota V-6 in the Tacoma, for example) where the filter is mounted way up high, at or above the head level. There is essentially no gravitational pressure of oil here, and so an ADBV is moot. I am not familiar with the engine design; perhaps it has a mechanical ABDV elsewhere? But the one in the filter is moot given the filter location.

In your recent experience, I think it's unfair to judge a used filter (presumably with a heat-soaked and cycled nitrile ADBV) against a new, fresh filter with soft ABDV which has not been hardened by time and thermal cycles. To really compare and contrast the difference between the PF48 and PF63, you'd need to run several back-to-back starts with young filters.

To wit, you can take all those filters you have "take one for the BITOG team" here ...
Go get some more PF48s, equal in number to the PF63s you have. Then get a bunch of inexpensive oil (I favor ST dino). Do an O/FCI with a PF48. Drive it for a week, then FCI to a PF63, but don't bother with an OCI (no sense in wasting lube). Do this back and forth for a few weeks, alternating between 48s and 63s that have not experienced heat aging. You'll probably need to top-off oil, but the relative fresh age of the oil should keep things consistent. By doing this, you can directly compare and contrast the effect of ONLY the filter and not anything else; you keep the variables a low as possible.

Sure, it's a bit wasteful. But, hey, you're a BITOGer, right? Isn't that what most here are into?

 

[KCJeep]

Are the bypass settings the same on those two filters?

 

[Sayjac]

I remember the thread starter and your point that if a filter is mounted in a thread end up orientation then no adbv is needed. My response was that if the vehicle manufacturer specs an adbv as oe they do so for a reason. And, holding oil in the oil galleries in addition to the filter is part of the job. So 'imo', your general assumption was faulty.

But, not sure why if both filters mentioned use/spec an adbv a start up rattle would be present for one and not the other. As mentioned though, it could be that the PF63 had a faulty/non functioning adbv.

All those things considered, I wouldn't be so quick to give up on the PF63's you have. I'd try another at some point and see if you get the same result. Then you'll have a better idea if the PF48 just works better ie., no start up rattle, for whatever reason or it was an anomaly.

My .02

 

[circuitsmith]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
However, the LOCATION of the filter (side of the block, under the block, high above the block) will alter the attempt of oil to drain back. This may or may not make an ADBV moot.


With the filter mounted high there is still gravitational effect in the passage leading down from the filter to the pump/sump.
So maybe ADBV is still needed even with the filter high.

 

[SHOZ]

My sons Malibu with the 4 cyl motor has a cartridge filter up high. The ADBV must be located in the base. All cartridge filters will be like this I would believe seeing as there is nothing to the filter but the actual filter element.

 

[CapitalTruck]

Oil filter is located base side (threads) up right below the crankshaft (adjacent to the oil pan). Anytime I've changed the oil in the vehicle a major amount of oil pours all over me from the area of the engine above the filter. Regardless, the ADBV setup of both the PF48 and PF63 are identical. I am unable to verify that the bypass valve operates at the same pressure.

 

[splinter]

Not certain of its source but this but ran across this in the archives:

PF63:
Product Type Full-Flow Lube Spin-on
Anti-Drain Valve YES
Gasket I.D. 2.45"
Gasket O.D. 2.76"
Gasket Usage Base
Product Height 4.06"
Product I.D. 22mmx1.5mm Thread
Product O.D. 2.98"
Relief Valve Setting PSI 9-15

&

PF48:
Product Type Full-Flow Lube Spin-on
Anti-Drain Valve YES
Gasket I.D. 2.45"
Gasket O.D. 2.76"
Gasket Thickness .19"
Gasket Usage Base
Product Height 3.33"
Product I.D. 22mmx1.5mm Thread
Product O.D. 3"
Relief Valve Setting PSI 9-12


Note the new PF63E and PF63F, per ACDelco, have a “bypass valve opening pressure that is increased from 100 to 150 kPa [~22-psi] and is statistically more capable.”
Not sure if "statistically more capable" refers to quality control, ultimate cleanliness or what but it sure sounds sexy.



Originally Posted By: CapitalTruck
..Anytime I've changed the oil in the vehicle a major amount of oil pours all over me from the area of the engine above the filter..


I also get a lot of oil running down from atop the filter’s anti-drainback valve during removal
(concurrent ATF + filter renewal is responsible for residual oil on the bellhousing).

 

[Texan4Life]

could have have been just that particular pf63 filer and had nothing to do with the size...

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: Texan4Life
could have have been just that particular pf63 filer and had nothing to do with the size...


Quite possibly. The BITOG'r side of me says to try another one since you already have them, but you seem to have found something that works so its best to just stick with that.

I have done the same sort of thing before.. Such as buying some M1 filters with an AAP code.. only to find out my Jeep hates them.

 

[CapitalTruck]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: Texan4Life
could have have been just that particular pf63 filer and had nothing to do with the size...


Quite possibly. The BITOG'r side of me says to try another one since you already have them, but you seem to have found something that works so its best to just stick with that.

I have done the same sort of thing before.. Such as buying some M1 filters with an AAP code.. only to find out my Jeep hates them.

What symptoms did your Jeep show with the M1s? I had thought about them at one point...

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: CapitalTruck
Oil filter is located base side (threads) up right below the crankshaft (adjacent to the oil pan). Anytime I've changed the oil in the vehicle a major amount of oil pours all over me from the area of the engine above the filter. Regardless, the ADBV setup of both the PF48 and PF63 are identical. I am unable to verify that the bypass valve operates at the same pressure.


So that engine does not have the filter bypass built into the block like most typical GM engines?

If you only get the engine knock after a long time sitting (over night or longer), but don't get it if the engine is only shutdown for 5 min, then it's probably a leaky ADBV.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: CapitalTruck
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: Texan4Life
could have have been just that particular pf63 filer and had nothing to do with the size...


Quite possibly. The BITOG'r side of me says to try another one since you already have them, but you seem to have found something that works so its best to just stick with that.

I have done the same sort of thing before.. Such as buying some M1 filters with an AAP code.. only to find out my Jeep hates them.

What symptoms did your Jeep show with the M1s? I had thought about them at one point...


Chances are, you will be fine. I am using them in 2 vehicles at the moment with no issues at all.

My Jeep used to tick very bad on start up with them. It would tick even when warm at times and it would never quite go away. It was so bad I actually thought I had some serious engine trouble. I have no idea what was really causing this, but after becoming a member here, I tried PYB and a Mopar filter. The tick is 90% gone. The 4.0 engine is a bit vocal by nature so I have learned to tolerate its excessive noise.

My best advice would be to try 1 for a full OCI before buying several like I did. Lol.

 

[CapitalTruck]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: CapitalTruck
Oil filter is located base side (threads) up right below the crankshaft (adjacent to the oil pan). Anytime I've changed the oil in the vehicle a major amount of oil pours all over me from the area of the engine above the filter. Regardless, the ADBV setup of both the PF48 and PF63 are identical. I am unable to verify that the bypass valve operates at the same pressure.


So that engine does not have the filter bypass built into the block like most typical GM engines?

If you only get the engine knock after a long time sitting (over night or longer), but don't get it if the engine is only shutdown for 5 min, then it's probably a leaky ADBV.


That's correct. At some point GM made the switch from the bypass-in-block to bypass-in-filter. I can't remember when it was, but it would be indicated by determining when they switched from the PF46 to the PF48 for the LS series V8 in this truck.