I sure hope you changed your socks after hearing that explanation.
2013 Dodge Dart no-start caused by oil viscosity?
- Thread starter ak62sporty
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As I recall the Lemon Law, it is the repeated failure, 3-times I think, of the dealer to fix the same problem. In your case, the no start. The OP doesn't state what his reason is for the Lemon law issue. For example, if you had a failure of the defrosters, then it over-heated, then the brakes locked up, then it wouldn't start, you still would not have a Lemon Law case.
Laws differ per state. AK is listed as follows: Qualification: 3 unsuccessful repairs or 30 business days out of service within shorter of 1 year or warranty. Notification/Trigger: Written notice by certified mail to manufacturer + dealer (or repair agent) that problem has not been corrected in reasonable number of attempts + refund or replacement demanded within 60 days. Manufacturer has 30 calendar days for final repair attempt. State has certified guidelines for arbitration.
IL gives 4 times before
http://www.autosafety.org/state-lemon-law-criteria
This link has a lot of info, including looking for lawyers and such
Laws differ per state. AK is listed as follows: Qualification: 3 unsuccessful repairs or 30 business days out of service within shorter of 1 year or warranty. Notification/Trigger: Written notice by certified mail to manufacturer + dealer (or repair agent) that problem has not been corrected in reasonable number of attempts + refund or replacement demanded within 60 days. Manufacturer has 30 calendar days for final repair attempt. State has certified guidelines for arbitration.
IL gives 4 times before
http://www.autosafety.org/state-lemon-law-criteria
This link has a lot of info, including looking for lawyers and such
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Cases like these is why sticking to the manufacturer's recommended grade during warranty is the best course of action. Just gives the dealer and the manufacturer one less excuse to weasel out of warranty repair.
Originally Posted By: Oily_hair
For the full story.....here is the actual quote from the 2013 Dart Manual
Engine Oil Selection – 2.0L And 2.4L Engine
For best performance and maximum protection for all
engines under all types of operating conditions, the
manufacturer recommends engine oils that are API Certified
and meet the requirements of Chrysler Material
Standard MS-6395.
Engine Oil Viscosity (SAE Grade) – 2.0L And 2.4L
Engine
SAE 0W-20 API Certified engine oil is recommended for
all operating temperatures. This engine oil improves low
temperature starting and vehicle fuel economy. Your
engine oil filler cap also states the recommended engine
oil viscosity grade for your engine.
530 MAINTAINING YOUR VEHICLEIf 0W-20 engine oil is not available, SAE 5W-20 API
Certified may be used as a temporary suitable alternative.
Lubricants which do not have both the engine oil certification
mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number
should not be used.
-------------------------------------------------------
T
It states '5W-20 may be used as a temporary suitable alternative' but does not clarify what it means by temporary. One person my take that as meaning to put 0W20 in at the next oil change, another might say that 5W20 would be OK for top up only, someone else might say that the oil needs to be changed out at the earliest opportunity. The manual needs to be clear what is OK and what is not. If it is unclear, that is an error in the manual and the manufacturer is responsible for that.
For the full story.....here is the actual quote from the 2013 Dart Manual
Engine Oil Selection – 2.0L And 2.4L Engine
For best performance and maximum protection for all
engines under all types of operating conditions, the
manufacturer recommends engine oils that are API Certified
and meet the requirements of Chrysler Material
Standard MS-6395.
Engine Oil Viscosity (SAE Grade) – 2.0L And 2.4L
Engine
SAE 0W-20 API Certified engine oil is recommended for
all operating temperatures. This engine oil improves low
temperature starting and vehicle fuel economy. Your
engine oil filler cap also states the recommended engine
oil viscosity grade for your engine.
530 MAINTAINING YOUR VEHICLEIf 0W-20 engine oil is not available, SAE 5W-20 API
Certified may be used as a temporary suitable alternative.
Lubricants which do not have both the engine oil certification
mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number
should not be used.
-------------------------------------------------------
T
It states '5W-20 may be used as a temporary suitable alternative' but does not clarify what it means by temporary. One person my take that as meaning to put 0W20 in at the next oil change, another might say that 5W20 would be OK for top up only, someone else might say that the oil needs to be changed out at the earliest opportunity. The manual needs to be clear what is OK and what is not. If it is unclear, that is an error in the manual and the manufacturer is responsible for that.
I have successfully navigated the Lemon Law process. My daughter had a car with a trunk leak that could not be stopped.
From my investigation, most manufacturers perform the same way, so thinking that Chrysler is worse than others is jaded. None of them roll over to expose their soft under belly during the first round.
- You MUST follow the procedure EXACTLY as written. ANY deviance will be cause to deny the initial attempt. Accept this as reality.
- The arbitration is a bit of a joke IF there is any single cause that deviates from the procedure or warranty requirements. In this case, the "temporary" use of 5w-20 is probably enough for the arbitrator to rule with the mfg., allowing them another attempt at the repair.
- AFTER all the correct procedures are followed and you still lose in arbitration, THEN you can hire a lawyer (pro bono in our case) and probably win, IF they cannot fix the problem.
Anyone who thinks the judicial process is about "being just" has not experienced reality. The OP has not discussed what the dealer has done regarding attempts and results to fix the problem. Is there some kind of permanent damage? What did diagnostic procedures reveal? Some customers are jerks and sabotage the repair attempts and the same goes regarding dealer service departments. Best of luck! Be patient, professional, and persevere.
From my investigation, most manufacturers perform the same way, so thinking that Chrysler is worse than others is jaded. None of them roll over to expose their soft under belly during the first round.
- You MUST follow the procedure EXACTLY as written. ANY deviance will be cause to deny the initial attempt. Accept this as reality.
- The arbitration is a bit of a joke IF there is any single cause that deviates from the procedure or warranty requirements. In this case, the "temporary" use of 5w-20 is probably enough for the arbitrator to rule with the mfg., allowing them another attempt at the repair.
- AFTER all the correct procedures are followed and you still lose in arbitration, THEN you can hire a lawyer (pro bono in our case) and probably win, IF they cannot fix the problem.
Anyone who thinks the judicial process is about "being just" has not experienced reality. The OP has not discussed what the dealer has done regarding attempts and results to fix the problem. Is there some kind of permanent damage? What did diagnostic procedures reveal? Some customers are jerks and sabotage the repair attempts and the same goes regarding dealer service departments. Best of luck! Be patient, professional, and persevere.
Is Chrysler saying that components in the engine have failed, because of the use of the incorrect grade of oil? That is what I think I am hearing. They are saying that the oil allowed the cam phasers to fail.
Who put the 5W oil in it? You? Or your dealer? If the dealer did it, clearly it is on them, and must be settled between them and Chyseler. If you did it......And the repair is costly.......You need a lawyer that can write good letters.
It seems to me that for an internal engine mechanism to fail in 7500 miles, because of a minor difference in oil specification, the design is far from robust. Good luck!
Who put the 5W oil in it? You? Or your dealer? If the dealer did it, clearly it is on them, and must be settled between them and Chyseler. If you did it......And the repair is costly.......You need a lawyer that can write good letters.
It seems to me that for an internal engine mechanism to fail in 7500 miles, because of a minor difference in oil specification, the design is far from robust. Good luck!
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Originally Posted By: doitmyself
I have successfully navigated the Lemon Law process. My daughter had a car with a trunk leak that could not be stopped.
From my investigation, most manufacturers perform the same way, so thinking that Chrysler is worse than others is jaded. None of them roll over to expose their soft under belly during the first round.
- You MUST follow the procedure EXACTLY as written. ANY deviance will be cause to deny the initial attempt. Accept this as reality.
- The arbitration is a bit of a joke IF there is any single cause that deviates from the procedure or warranty requirements. In this case, the "temporary" use of 5w-20 is probably enough for the arbitrator to rule with the mfg., allowing them another attempt at the repair.
- AFTER all the correct procedures are followed and you still lose in arbitration, THEN you can hire a lawyer (pro bono in our case) and probably win, IF they cannot fix the problem.
Anyone who thinks the judicial process is about "being just" has not experienced reality. The OP has not discussed what the dealer has done regarding attempts and results to fix the problem. Is there some kind of permanent damage? What did diagnostic procedures reveal? Some customers are jerks and sabotage the repair attempts and the same goes regarding dealer service departments. Best of luck! Be patient, professional, and persevere.
I agree with you. There are a lot of people out there that don't understand the processes. When a business is correcting there mistakes, they do so based on trying to make a customer happy, not because the law says so. If you want to exercise your rights, you will need to be more involved more so than you may want to be.
I have successfully navigated the Lemon Law process. My daughter had a car with a trunk leak that could not be stopped.
From my investigation, most manufacturers perform the same way, so thinking that Chrysler is worse than others is jaded. None of them roll over to expose their soft under belly during the first round.
- You MUST follow the procedure EXACTLY as written. ANY deviance will be cause to deny the initial attempt. Accept this as reality.
- The arbitration is a bit of a joke IF there is any single cause that deviates from the procedure or warranty requirements. In this case, the "temporary" use of 5w-20 is probably enough for the arbitrator to rule with the mfg., allowing them another attempt at the repair.
- AFTER all the correct procedures are followed and you still lose in arbitration, THEN you can hire a lawyer (pro bono in our case) and probably win, IF they cannot fix the problem.
Anyone who thinks the judicial process is about "being just" has not experienced reality. The OP has not discussed what the dealer has done regarding attempts and results to fix the problem. Is there some kind of permanent damage? What did diagnostic procedures reveal? Some customers are jerks and sabotage the repair attempts and the same goes regarding dealer service departments. Best of luck! Be patient, professional, and persevere.
I agree with you. There are a lot of people out there that don't understand the processes. When a business is correcting there mistakes, they do so based on trying to make a customer happy, not because the law says so. If you want to exercise your rights, you will need to be more involved more so than you may want to be.
Apparently the 2013 Darts aren't any better than the 66 V8 dart I had. What can you expect from a couple of perdedors?
The vehicle has an intermittent no start/ rough run condition. Everything was fine until I had about 7,000 miles on the car. Then one day it picked up a multiple cylinder misfire with a flashing check engine light. The dealer claimed it was due to dirty oil. As per the owners manual, I was waiting for the change oil light to change it. I had the dealership change the oil, they put in 5w20. The owners manual quoted above is different than what came with my car, the acceptability of 5w20 is not quantified with 'temporarily' in my edition. I did not ask for the 5w20, I simply trusted them to use the correct oil. This was in October, when it started to get colder. After the oil change, the problem continued to occur. Several times while driving it would pick IP a horrendous misfire, bad enough to make the car underivable. 3 other times it failed to start in the morning and got towed into the day dealership. The dealer did nothing to diagnos the vehicle, claiming they can't fix it with no codes. Twice when I went to pick vehicle up after they said it was repaired, it wouldn't start. After I began the lemon law procedure, the dealership has one chance to make a final repair, under Alaska law. The dealership, after working with the factory, used their last chance to change the oil to 0w20. I picked the car up yesterday, and am now driving and waiting for it to leave me stranded again. I posted here as I am curious about more knowledgeable opinions on their explanation. I put little faith in it myself, but don't have the technical knowledge on oil to know for sure.
Sounds like your are doing fine with your process. Hang in there and hope they find soemthing wrong that fixes the issue. I owned a 94 Saturn SL2 - 5 spd. About 34K miles, I had a problem with the cruise just dropping. A couple of trips to and from couldn't find it. While still under warranty, it was again in the shop and the manager was driving and it happened to him. They replaced the brake switch, the clutch switch and a couple of other switches. He knew it had a problem, but couldn't figure out which switch. You might see Dodge do the same.orum
Good luck, post back your results...enjoy the Forum
Good luck, post back your results...enjoy the Forum
Its a dodge.........
Originally Posted By: ak62sporty
The factory just came back yesterday saying the problem is due to the fact that the engine recieved Mopar 5w20 engine oil instead of 0w20 oil at the last oil change. Does this make sense to anyone? This winter has been crazy warm; some of the no starts occurred at positive 25 F, none of them less than 10 degrees.
This is a lame excuse. 5w30 is a common oil weight cars around here have no problem cranking in single digit temperatures. All cars will take a little longer to start when cranking in cold temps but they should start without a problem.
Take it back for an 0w20 oil change at the dealer just to appease them. Good luck with your lemon case.
The factory just came back yesterday saying the problem is due to the fact that the engine recieved Mopar 5w20 engine oil instead of 0w20 oil at the last oil change. Does this make sense to anyone? This winter has been crazy warm; some of the no starts occurred at positive 25 F, none of them less than 10 degrees.
This is a lame excuse. 5w30 is a common oil weight cars around here have no problem cranking in single digit temperatures. All cars will take a little longer to start when cranking in cold temps but they should start without a problem.
Take it back for an 0w20 oil change at the dealer just to appease them. Good luck with your lemon case.
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Ask your service "advisor..." what the difference is between 0w20 and 5w20... and maybe record it , with permission of course...
Because them using the 0w vs 5w is nothing more than a smoke screen... they are hoping you go away... nothing more.
Get them to drain the oil from a new DART, put in a 15w50 , and see if it starts... it probably will... the oil is NOT the issue here.
Because them using the 0w vs 5w is nothing more than a smoke screen... they are hoping you go away... nothing more.
Get them to drain the oil from a new DART, put in a 15w50 , and see if it starts... it probably will... the oil is NOT the issue here.
Originally Posted By: ak62sporty
The vehicle has an intermittent no start/ rough run condition. Everything was fine until I had about 7,000 miles on the car. Then one day it picked up a multiple cylinder misfire with a flashing check engine light. The dealer claimed it was due to dirty oil. As per the owners manual, I was waiting for the change oil light to change it. I had the dealership change the oil, they put in 5w20. The owners manual quoted above is different than what came with my car, the acceptability of 5w20 is not quantified with 'temporarily' in my edition. I did not ask for the 5w20, I simply trusted them to use the correct oil. This was in October, when it started to get colder. After the oil change, the problem continued to occur. Several times while driving it would pick IP a horrendous misfire, bad enough to make the car underivable. 3 other times it failed to start in the morning and got towed into the day dealership. The dealer did nothing to diagnos the vehicle, claiming they can't fix it with no codes. Twice when I went to pick vehicle up after they said it was repaired, it wouldn't start. After I began the lemon law procedure, the dealership has one chance to make a final repair, under Alaska law. The dealership, after working with the factory, used their last chance to change the oil to 0w20. I picked the car up yesterday, and am now driving and waiting for it to leave me stranded again. I posted here as I am curious about more knowledgeable opinions on their explanation. I put little faith in it myself, but don't have the technical knowledge on oil to know for sure.
The misfire condition has occurred on both 0w20 and 5w20 oil, so it is not the cause of the problem. The dealer is just putting up a smoke screen. If the oil was affecting the cam phasers, that would not cause a misfire condition. Problems with the cam phasers would cause fault codes to be logged which the service department could then read.
I find it to be very fishy that they have failed to read fault codes after the Check Engine light has been flashing. In my Camaro, if the Check Engine light comes on, a fault code will be in the memory, even if the problem is intermittent. I have my own code scanner, and it classifies faults as active or inactive.
After reading about the process you have gone through so far, I take back what I said in my previous post. It does seem time to invoke the Lemon Law.
The vehicle has an intermittent no start/ rough run condition. Everything was fine until I had about 7,000 miles on the car. Then one day it picked up a multiple cylinder misfire with a flashing check engine light. The dealer claimed it was due to dirty oil. As per the owners manual, I was waiting for the change oil light to change it. I had the dealership change the oil, they put in 5w20. The owners manual quoted above is different than what came with my car, the acceptability of 5w20 is not quantified with 'temporarily' in my edition. I did not ask for the 5w20, I simply trusted them to use the correct oil. This was in October, when it started to get colder. After the oil change, the problem continued to occur. Several times while driving it would pick IP a horrendous misfire, bad enough to make the car underivable. 3 other times it failed to start in the morning and got towed into the day dealership. The dealer did nothing to diagnos the vehicle, claiming they can't fix it with no codes. Twice when I went to pick vehicle up after they said it was repaired, it wouldn't start. After I began the lemon law procedure, the dealership has one chance to make a final repair, under Alaska law. The dealership, after working with the factory, used their last chance to change the oil to 0w20. I picked the car up yesterday, and am now driving and waiting for it to leave me stranded again. I posted here as I am curious about more knowledgeable opinions on their explanation. I put little faith in it myself, but don't have the technical knowledge on oil to know for sure.
The misfire condition has occurred on both 0w20 and 5w20 oil, so it is not the cause of the problem. The dealer is just putting up a smoke screen. If the oil was affecting the cam phasers, that would not cause a misfire condition. Problems with the cam phasers would cause fault codes to be logged which the service department could then read.
I find it to be very fishy that they have failed to read fault codes after the Check Engine light has been flashing. In my Camaro, if the Check Engine light comes on, a fault code will be in the memory, even if the problem is intermittent. I have my own code scanner, and it classifies faults as active or inactive.
After reading about the process you have gone through so far, I take back what I said in my previous post. It does seem time to invoke the Lemon Law.
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