Hello. I am in the middle of a lemon law case with my 2013 dodge dart. The car has 7,500 miles on it. About 3 months ago, the car started misfiring when it would start, CEL flashing, and often not start. The vehicle has the 2.0 engine with a stick shift. The factory just came back yesterday saying the problem is due to the fact that the engine recieved Mopar 5w20 engine oil instead of 0w20 oil at the last oil change. Does this make sense to anyone? This winter has been crazy warm; some of the no starts occurred at positive 25 F, none of them less than 10 degrees. The 2.4 uses the Fiat 'Multi air' system, that looks quite oil sensitive, but my 2.0 seems to use standard cam phasers. Am I being feed a line, or could the viscosity issue be legit? The owners manual says 0w20 is preferred, but 5w20 is acceptable.
2013 Dodge Dart no-start caused by oil viscosity?
- Thread starter ak62sporty
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Originally Posted By: ak62sporty
The owners manual says 0w20 is preferred, but 5w20 is acceptable.
If this is what the manual says then there should be no litigious issues at least.
The owners manual says 0w20 is preferred, but 5w20 is acceptable.
If this is what the manual says then there should be no litigious issues at least.
http://www.chrysler.com/en/warranty/ take it to a dealership....imho
Makes no sense to me. A Dodge dealer who serviced my son's Dart used 5W-20 Pennzoil syn blend for his 1st oil change. He ran it for the full OLM OCI before switching to PP 0W-20 as recommended. He has had few issues with his car - a 2.0L automatic now with 25k miles. One CEL was caused by a loose gas cap.
Originally Posted By: ak62sporty
The owners manual says 0w20 is preferred, but 5w20 is acceptable.
That's the answer and end of story.
The owners manual says 0w20 is preferred, but 5w20 is acceptable.
That's the answer and end of story.
Last edited:
If 0W-20 engine oil is not available, SAE 5W-20 API Certified may be used as a temporary suitable alternative.
In other words as soon as you can change back to 0w20.
5w20 is not a permanent usable oil solution.
In other words as soon as you can change back to 0w20.
5w20 is not a permanent usable oil solution.
Originally Posted By: ak62sporty
The owners manual says 0w20 is preferred, but 5w20 is acceptable.
The above quote says it all, take the owners manual to court with you if necessary.
A Lemon Law case tells the tale. It's their lame attempt at trying to defend themselves, and people wonder why many of us hate car dealerships.
The owners manual says 0w20 is preferred, but 5w20 is acceptable.
The above quote says it all, take the owners manual to court with you if necessary.
A Lemon Law case tells the tale. It's their lame attempt at trying to defend themselves, and people wonder why many of us hate car dealerships.
For the full story.....here is the actual quote from the 2013 Dart Manual
Engine Oil Selection – 2.0L And 2.4L Engine
For best performance and maximum protection for all
engines under all types of operating conditions, the
manufacturer recommends engine oils that are API Certified
and meet the requirements of Chrysler Material
Standard MS-6395.
Engine Oil Viscosity (SAE Grade) – 2.0L And 2.4L
Engine
SAE 0W-20 API Certified engine oil is recommended for
all operating temperatures. This engine oil improves low
temperature starting and vehicle fuel economy. Your
engine oil filler cap also states the recommended engine
oil viscosity grade for your engine.
530 MAINTAINING YOUR VEHICLEIf 0W-20 engine oil is not available, SAE 5W-20 API
Certified may be used as a temporary suitable alternative.
Lubricants which do not have both the engine oil certification
mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number
should not be used.
-------------------------------------------------------
T
Engine Oil Selection – 2.0L And 2.4L Engine
For best performance and maximum protection for all
engines under all types of operating conditions, the
manufacturer recommends engine oils that are API Certified
and meet the requirements of Chrysler Material
Standard MS-6395.
Engine Oil Viscosity (SAE Grade) – 2.0L And 2.4L
Engine
SAE 0W-20 API Certified engine oil is recommended for
all operating temperatures. This engine oil improves low
temperature starting and vehicle fuel economy. Your
engine oil filler cap also states the recommended engine
oil viscosity grade for your engine.
530 MAINTAINING YOUR VEHICLEIf 0W-20 engine oil is not available, SAE 5W-20 API
Certified may be used as a temporary suitable alternative.
Lubricants which do not have both the engine oil certification
mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number
should not be used.
-------------------------------------------------------
T
Originally Posted By: Oily_hair
For the full story.....here is the actual quote from the 2013 Dart Manual
Engine Oil Selection – 2.0L And 2.4L Engine
For best performance and maximum protection for all
engines under all types of operating conditions, the
manufacturer recommends engine oils that are API Certified
and meet the requirements of Chrysler Material
Standard MS-6395.
Engine Oil Viscosity (SAE Grade) – 2.0L And 2.4L
Engine
SAE 0W-20 API Certified engine oil is recommended for
all operating temperatures. This engine oil improves low
temperature starting and vehicle fuel economy. Your
engine oil filler cap also states the recommended engine
oil viscosity grade for your engine.
530 MAINTAINING YOUR VEHICLEIf 0W-20 engine oil is not available, SAE 5W-20 API
Certified may be used as a temporary suitable alternative.
Lubricants which do not have both the engine oil certification
mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number
should not be used.
-------------------------------------------------------
T
IRIC some 5W20 oils meet the MS6395 spec, they do for my Jeep, although it is older than his. Either way I believe the OP has a great case. If I were him I'd fight it, and would be reasonably confident in winning. If the OP has any doubts he should hire an attorney.
For the full story.....here is the actual quote from the 2013 Dart Manual
Engine Oil Selection – 2.0L And 2.4L Engine
For best performance and maximum protection for all
engines under all types of operating conditions, the
manufacturer recommends engine oils that are API Certified
and meet the requirements of Chrysler Material
Standard MS-6395.
Engine Oil Viscosity (SAE Grade) – 2.0L And 2.4L
Engine
SAE 0W-20 API Certified engine oil is recommended for
all operating temperatures. This engine oil improves low
temperature starting and vehicle fuel economy. Your
engine oil filler cap also states the recommended engine
oil viscosity grade for your engine.
530 MAINTAINING YOUR VEHICLEIf 0W-20 engine oil is not available, SAE 5W-20 API
Certified may be used as a temporary suitable alternative.
Lubricants which do not have both the engine oil certification
mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number
should not be used.
-------------------------------------------------------
T
IRIC some 5W20 oils meet the MS6395 spec, they do for my Jeep, although it is older than his. Either way I believe the OP has a great case. If I were him I'd fight it, and would be reasonably confident in winning. If the OP has any doubts he should hire an attorney.
First, their excuse carries zero weight. It seems like nothing more than a lulling tactic to buy more time. If you are represented by an attorney, take his advice on what to do next. If not, you may have to humor the dealer after they do an oil change to 0w-20. But then the next time it shows the same problem, I'd park it in front of their main entrance with a large lemon sign on the windshield.
Originally Posted By: Oily_hair
For the full story.....here is the actual quote from the 2013 Dart Manual
Engine Oil Selection – 2.0L And 2.4L Engine
For best performance and maximum protection for all
engines under all types of operating conditions, the
manufacturer recommends engine oils that are API Certified
and meet the requirements of Chrysler Material
Standard MS-6395.
Engine Oil Viscosity (SAE Grade) – 2.0L And 2.4L
Engine
SAE 0W-20 API Certified engine oil is recommended for
all operating temperatures. This engine oil improves low
temperature starting and vehicle fuel economy. Your
engine oil filler cap also states the recommended engine
oil viscosity grade for your engine.
530 MAINTAINING YOUR VEHICLEIf 0W-20 engine oil is not available, SAE 5W-20 API
Certified may be used as a temporary suitable alternative.
Lubricants which do not have both the engine oil certification
mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number
should not be used.
-------------------------------------------------------
T
And with that tidbit of information their entire position that 5w-20 caused an issue is utter hogwash.
Most of the general public are mystified by engine oil and the various certifications and consider it voodoo.
The oem's will play with their customers in an attempt to escape liability in various ways,oil being one of these avenues in which most can be fed absurdity but accept even the most ludicrous explanations imply because they aren't certain and therefore expose themselves.
Most here at BITOG understand oil. So if an oem attempted to pull this one we'd simply laugh.
That being said my charger will set off the CEL sometimes when I use 0w-40 in my hemi. It's not often but does happen.
Since today's engines have various systems that are oil pressure actuated and the oem's certify their operation based on the most common available grade in each market for the most part,with some exceptions.
So my hemi was certified using a 5w-20,as are most hemi engines with the SRT engines being exempt.
However because availability may at some point present a problem with availability the oem's know that their systems will operate acceptably using a variety of grades however with thicker grades these systems will operate in a retarded fashion measured in milliseconds,so for an oem to even suggest engine damage or system failure based on use of a lubricant with the same hot viscosity characteristics is equal to saying to their customer that they feel they are stupid and will just accept their verdict without any investigation by the consumer.
I think it's a very big mistake on their part. Not only will they lose that particular customer but once people like me read about how the customer was treated and the horse dung they were told it makes me reconsider a purchase based on this experience because if it happens to one it can happen to others.
You're owners manual says in black and white that the grade used is acceptable for a short term. How they define that term of use will be the only point of discussion.
I'm disgusted that the notion was not only implied but actually accused.
Good luck. Make everyone you can aware of your experience.
For the full story.....here is the actual quote from the 2013 Dart Manual
Engine Oil Selection – 2.0L And 2.4L Engine
For best performance and maximum protection for all
engines under all types of operating conditions, the
manufacturer recommends engine oils that are API Certified
and meet the requirements of Chrysler Material
Standard MS-6395.
Engine Oil Viscosity (SAE Grade) – 2.0L And 2.4L
Engine
SAE 0W-20 API Certified engine oil is recommended for
all operating temperatures. This engine oil improves low
temperature starting and vehicle fuel economy. Your
engine oil filler cap also states the recommended engine
oil viscosity grade for your engine.
530 MAINTAINING YOUR VEHICLEIf 0W-20 engine oil is not available, SAE 5W-20 API
Certified may be used as a temporary suitable alternative.
Lubricants which do not have both the engine oil certification
mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number
should not be used.
-------------------------------------------------------
T
And with that tidbit of information their entire position that 5w-20 caused an issue is utter hogwash.
Most of the general public are mystified by engine oil and the various certifications and consider it voodoo.
The oem's will play with their customers in an attempt to escape liability in various ways,oil being one of these avenues in which most can be fed absurdity but accept even the most ludicrous explanations imply because they aren't certain and therefore expose themselves.
Most here at BITOG understand oil. So if an oem attempted to pull this one we'd simply laugh.
That being said my charger will set off the CEL sometimes when I use 0w-40 in my hemi. It's not often but does happen.
Since today's engines have various systems that are oil pressure actuated and the oem's certify their operation based on the most common available grade in each market for the most part,with some exceptions.
So my hemi was certified using a 5w-20,as are most hemi engines with the SRT engines being exempt.
However because availability may at some point present a problem with availability the oem's know that their systems will operate acceptably using a variety of grades however with thicker grades these systems will operate in a retarded fashion measured in milliseconds,so for an oem to even suggest engine damage or system failure based on use of a lubricant with the same hot viscosity characteristics is equal to saying to their customer that they feel they are stupid and will just accept their verdict without any investigation by the consumer.
I think it's a very big mistake on their part. Not only will they lose that particular customer but once people like me read about how the customer was treated and the horse dung they were told it makes me reconsider a purchase based on this experience because if it happens to one it can happen to others.
You're owners manual says in black and white that the grade used is acceptable for a short term. How they define that term of use will be the only point of discussion.
I'm disgusted that the notion was not only implied but actually accused.
Good luck. Make everyone you can aware of your experience.
If they really wanted to push this, I would ask them to prove that the viscosity difference at 25 degrees between a 0W- and a 5W- is significantly greater than the statistical variance between different 0W- brands at the same temperature.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Good luck. Make everyone you can aware of your experience.
Exactly. Play nice first! Then if things don't go your way, get on every message board you can. Then make it known to potential customers of the dealership how you were treated. If they want to play hardball, or take the gloves off let them go for it.
Good luck. Make everyone you can aware of your experience.
Exactly. Play nice first! Then if things don't go your way, get on every message board you can. Then make it known to potential customers of the dealership how you were treated. If they want to play hardball, or take the gloves off let them go for it.
I am in no way advocating for the dealership, Chrysler or any oil company but this is why I always treat the owners manual like the bible when it comes to recommended fluids during its warranty period. It avoids any legal hassles of explaining yourself.
OP is in AK; I would be using 0W-20; This is a side comment, not a comment addressing your particular issues.
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Originally Posted By: kschachn
If they really wanted to push this, I would ask them to prove that the viscosity difference at 25 degrees between a 0W- and a 5W- is significantly greater than the statistical variance between different 0W- brands at the same temperature.
This is a good start. Key in these cases will be evidence to support a factual conclusion, not opinion. As the OP stated, it seems to be a FACT that the car received 5W-20 oil. However, there is no EVIDENCE in the information above for the CONCLUSION that the oil weight was the cause of failing to start.
While looking at the statistical variance might be interesting, the OP needs to challenge the factory's CONCLUSION that the one caused the other. In other words, make the factory PROVE that these cars will not start at the noted temperature with the 5W-20. After they have provided real EVIDENCE to support that conclusion, then you have a really sound basis to challenge the language in their manual. If you don't challenge the nexus, an arbitrator will likely rule in favor of the factory in the absence of such a challenge because the factory is presumed to have more technical expertise in these matters than either the challenger or the arbitrator.
If they really wanted to push this, I would ask them to prove that the viscosity difference at 25 degrees between a 0W- and a 5W- is significantly greater than the statistical variance between different 0W- brands at the same temperature.
This is a good start. Key in these cases will be evidence to support a factual conclusion, not opinion. As the OP stated, it seems to be a FACT that the car received 5W-20 oil. However, there is no EVIDENCE in the information above for the CONCLUSION that the oil weight was the cause of failing to start.
While looking at the statistical variance might be interesting, the OP needs to challenge the factory's CONCLUSION that the one caused the other. In other words, make the factory PROVE that these cars will not start at the noted temperature with the 5W-20. After they have provided real EVIDENCE to support that conclusion, then you have a really sound basis to challenge the language in their manual. If you don't challenge the nexus, an arbitrator will likely rule in favor of the factory in the absence of such a challenge because the factory is presumed to have more technical expertise in these matters than either the challenger or the arbitrator.
Originally Posted By: Oily_hair
For the full story.....here is the actual quote from the 2013 Dart Manual
Engine Oil Selection – 2.0L And 2.4L Engine
For best performance and maximum protection for all
engines under all types of operating conditions, the
manufacturer recommends engine oils that are API Certified
and meet the requirements of Chrysler Material
Standard MS-6395.
Engine Oil Viscosity (SAE Grade) – 2.0L And 2.4L
Engine
SAE 0W-20 API Certified engine oil is recommended for
all operating temperatures. This engine oil improves low
temperature starting and vehicle fuel economy. Your
engine oil filler cap also states the recommended engine
oil viscosity grade for your engine.
530 MAINTAINING YOUR VEHICLEIf 0W-20 engine oil is not available, SAE 5W-20 API
Certified may be used as a temporary suitable alternative.
Lubricants which do not have both the engine oil certification
mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number
should not be used.
-------------------------------------------------------
T
In 1998, Toyota was saying the same thing in their manuals about 5W 30 vs 10W 30. I'd say this is a case of "meet the new Chrysler, same as the old Chrysler". BTW that 98 Camry just lit off at ZERO with 5W 40 T6 in the crankcase.
For the full story.....here is the actual quote from the 2013 Dart Manual
Engine Oil Selection – 2.0L And 2.4L Engine
For best performance and maximum protection for all
engines under all types of operating conditions, the
manufacturer recommends engine oils that are API Certified
and meet the requirements of Chrysler Material
Standard MS-6395.
Engine Oil Viscosity (SAE Grade) – 2.0L And 2.4L
Engine
SAE 0W-20 API Certified engine oil is recommended for
all operating temperatures. This engine oil improves low
temperature starting and vehicle fuel economy. Your
engine oil filler cap also states the recommended engine
oil viscosity grade for your engine.
530 MAINTAINING YOUR VEHICLEIf 0W-20 engine oil is not available, SAE 5W-20 API
Certified may be used as a temporary suitable alternative.
Lubricants which do not have both the engine oil certification
mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number
should not be used.
-------------------------------------------------------
T
In 1998, Toyota was saying the same thing in their manuals about 5W 30 vs 10W 30. I'd say this is a case of "meet the new Chrysler, same as the old Chrysler". BTW that 98 Camry just lit off at ZERO with 5W 40 T6 in the crankcase.
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From the OP's thread opener, things have gone beyond the dealership level and the factory rep is now involved.
I have no idea what might be wrong with this car, but it has nothing to do with oil grade used. Since the dealer used 5W-20 and the factory guy is claiming that that's the problem, the OP should have the dealer do a free change using 0W-20.
When this doesn't fix anything, and it won't, the OP can then give Chrysler the option of either fixing the car or buying it back.
A flashing CEL indicates more than a minor little issue.
There will be some hard codes set. Maybe go the AZ or AAP and have them read before the dealer's service folks clear them?
I have no idea what might be wrong with this car, but it has nothing to do with oil grade used. Since the dealer used 5W-20 and the factory guy is claiming that that's the problem, the OP should have the dealer do a free change using 0W-20.
When this doesn't fix anything, and it won't, the OP can then give Chrysler the option of either fixing the car or buying it back.
A flashing CEL indicates more than a minor little issue.
There will be some hard codes set. Maybe go the AZ or AAP and have them read before the dealer's service folks clear them?
Did the dealer change the oil with 5w-20? If they did, then the dealer needs to change the oil with 0w-20 and see if the problem goes away. Which it likely won't.
Originally Posted By: ak62sporty
Hello. I am in the middle of a lemon law case with my 2013 dodge dart. The car has 7,500 miles on it. About 3 months ago, the car started misfiring when it would start, CEL flashing, and often not start. The vehicle has the 2.0 engine with a stick shift. The factory just came back yesterday saying the problem is due to the fact that the engine recieved Mopar 5w20 engine oil instead of 0w20 oil at the last oil change. Does this make sense to anyone? This winter has been crazy warm; some of the no starts occurred at positive 25 F, none of them less than 10 degrees. The 2.4 uses the Fiat 'Multi air' system, that looks quite oil sensitive, but my 2.0 seems to use standard cam phasers. Am I being feed a line, or could the viscosity issue be legit? The owners manual says 0w20 is preferred, but 5w20 is acceptable.
Who put the 5w20 in it, you or the dealer? If they put it in, they should give you a free oil change to 0w20. But regardless, the engine should start fine on 5w20 down to at least 10F temperatures.
What fault code did you get from the CEL?
I agree with NormanBuntz that you should humor the dealer and run 0w20 until the fault occurs again. I think they are feeding you a line. But I don't know if you need to go to the extreme of a Lemon Law case at this point. If the car only has one problem, work with the dealer to solve it, but make sure that you are getting and keeping the documentation on what steps were taken. To me the Lemon Law is for cars that have multiple problems that haven't been solved after many attempts by the dealer, and the car is all but useless because of them.
Getting lawyers involved just adds to the cost and stress, and you need to decide for yourself if the "cure is worse than the disease".
Do you like the car otherwise?
Hello. I am in the middle of a lemon law case with my 2013 dodge dart. The car has 7,500 miles on it. About 3 months ago, the car started misfiring when it would start, CEL flashing, and often not start. The vehicle has the 2.0 engine with a stick shift. The factory just came back yesterday saying the problem is due to the fact that the engine recieved Mopar 5w20 engine oil instead of 0w20 oil at the last oil change. Does this make sense to anyone? This winter has been crazy warm; some of the no starts occurred at positive 25 F, none of them less than 10 degrees. The 2.4 uses the Fiat 'Multi air' system, that looks quite oil sensitive, but my 2.0 seems to use standard cam phasers. Am I being feed a line, or could the viscosity issue be legit? The owners manual says 0w20 is preferred, but 5w20 is acceptable.
Who put the 5w20 in it, you or the dealer? If they put it in, they should give you a free oil change to 0w20. But regardless, the engine should start fine on 5w20 down to at least 10F temperatures.
What fault code did you get from the CEL?
I agree with NormanBuntz that you should humor the dealer and run 0w20 until the fault occurs again. I think they are feeding you a line. But I don't know if you need to go to the extreme of a Lemon Law case at this point. If the car only has one problem, work with the dealer to solve it, but make sure that you are getting and keeping the documentation on what steps were taken. To me the Lemon Law is for cars that have multiple problems that haven't been solved after many attempts by the dealer, and the car is all but useless because of them.
Getting lawyers involved just adds to the cost and stress, and you need to decide for yourself if the "cure is worse than the disease".
Do you like the car otherwise?
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