Interesting crash data

[HangFire]

Originally Posted By: KenO


Preface: I teach car control & defensive driving, am a long-time autocrosser, and build & drive road race cars.

Put the kid in an Omni, or any other old car. ANYTHING older, regardless of HP.


Stunningly bad advice!

80's cars have very poor crash ratings compared to modern cars. I just posted a personal experience. Driver feel is present in some of the older cars and some of the newer ones, so that is a wash.

And "regardless of HP"... really, really bad advice, especially for teen boys.

 

[supton]

I don't think Ken was making a case for anything old, just comparing how new vs led handle different. Today one is likely to just steer and brake out of anything--right up until the tires give up. Easy to be real confident. Or, if one is not a risk taker, be a decent driver despite having no skills. As opposed to a couple decades ago, where one had to have some skills. Or they were apt to be in over their head in short order.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: supton
I don't think Ken was making a case for anything old, just comparing how new vs led handle different. Today one is likely to just steer and brake out of anything--right up until the tires give up. Easy to be real confident. Or, if one is not a risk taker, be a decent driver despite having no skills. As opposed to a couple decades ago, where one had to have some skills. Or they were apt to be in over their head in short order.


The AirAsia crash has renewed discussion of the problem of pilots who become so dependent on the autopilot and warning systems that they lack the cognitive ability to take control when necessary.

Note that I'm not saying that there shouldn't be automated systems in place, but drivers need to know and understand the business of driving and not blindly depend on the silicon nannies to save their bacon...

 

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Mykl


Your theory isn't supported by the data that's right in front of you.


The same data can support multiple theories, depending who's footing the bill for the study.

Statistically speaking I'm more likely to crash in a two door Civic, than a Camry, but I never had an accident that was my deemed as my fault. Which data point would insurance use if I had a Civic? I'm betting the one that would allow them to charge higher insurance premium.


So your argument is... "because numbers are involved, I can make any claim I want!!!" no matter how ridiculous???

This thread feels like a bunch of old guys circle jerking about the old days, tossing around anecdotal evidence like it's pure fact.

 

[KenO]

Originally Posted By: supton
I don't think Ken was making a case for anything old, just comparing how new vs led handle different. Today one is likely to just steer and brake out of anything--right up until the tires give up. Easy to be real confident. Or, if one is not a risk taker, be a decent driver despite having no skills. As opposed to a couple decades ago, where one had to have some skills. Or they were apt to be in over their head in short order.


This.


You guys bring up another good point too - driver instruction. You have to remember that for a surprisingly large majority of drivers on the road, they had NO driver training. Parents are horrible drivers and pass them on their bad habits, if they taught them anything at all. US drivers tests are a joke. Some of us have had more professional driver training than most people have ever even heard of.

MCompact - kudos for you sir! I've been a Street Survival instructor for 6 years now, and the relationships we build with our students in just 1 short day, and the skills they develop (that their parents get to see progress thru the day) are amazing, and the only thing I wish is that it was a more intense 2-day school. I know some people and have heard some stories from a former class called Extreme Measures, that was 2-day and a VERY comprehensive program. Then it was bought by Petty Enterprises, gutted and screwed with, they pushed away all the great instructors, then shut the program down smh.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: KenO



You guys bring up another good point too - driver instruction. You have to remember that for a surprisingly large majority of drivers on the road, they had NO driver training. Parents are horrible drivers and pass them on their bad habits, if they taught them anything at all. US drivers tests are a joke. Some of us have had more professional driver training than most people have ever even heard of.

MCompact - kudos for you sir! I've been a Street Survival instructor for 6 years now, and the relationships we build with our students in just 1 short day, and the skills they develop (that their parents get to see progress thru the day) are amazing, and the only thing I wish is that it was a more intense 2-day school. I know some people and have heard some stories from a former class called Extreme Measures, that was 2-day and a VERY comprehensive program. Then it was bought by Petty Enterprises, gutted and screwed with, they pushed away all the great instructors, then shut the program down smh.


I try to instruct at Street Survival at least a couple of times per year; it would be nice to have a 2-day program as well, but I think that perceived time constraints would nix that for a lot of people- even though those same folks would make time for things that are much less important...

 

[SteveSRT8]

It has been shown in studies that most folks do not use 100% of their cars abilities to avoid an accident.

I have personally witnessed one from the passenger seat where the driver simply did not use all the brakes had to offer. never even engaged abs.

Personally I believe most modern cars are far safer in a crash, but an alert and PREPARED driver is far more likely to avoid the crash no matter what he's driving. That is ultimately a far better outcome!

How many of us took our kids out on wet grass and practiced sliding and skidding and feeling how a car rotates, etc? You simply cannot equate even a one day pro course in driver safety with normal driver's ed techniques. Mega important to those of us who know what this really teaches! I remember my Mom ridiculing me when I took time off work to go to Skip Barber with my oldest.

Driver's Ed teaches parallel parking...

 

[Shannow]

Great Post Steve.

I agree wholeheartedly that the average mug has no idea where the limits of their vehicle are, let alone how to get there.

All things that I learned on grass and gravel, while being labelled a hoon as a teenager...

Oz's worst traction is light rain after 3-4 weeks of dry. Even now my better half asks why I spin a wheel, or do a stop, or push an understeer situation...conditions change, my tyres change, my car changes.

I've got mates who grew up riding dirtbikes on farms...their muscle memory is perfect when they need it...because they've done it.

 

[Rick in PA]

Not enough variables in that article.

1. Driver attitude: risk taker vs. conservative driver.
Can't control this variable and a conservative driver may on occasion become a risk taker.

2. Training: Training is important but it will not change a risk taker, it may even embolden them.

3. Power: Powerful cars always present a risk, that's part of their allure.
As long as you're buying the car for the kid, you can control this variable.

4. Safety in design: Always important, but it shouldn't be a substitute for safe driving.

Mixing 1 and 3 above, putting a risk taker in a powerful car has always been a bad idea. I read historical a book once where a rich guy bought his son a Stutz Bearcat. The son put the Bearcat into a tree and killed himself. A story as old as the automobile.

I'm not gonna preach. I did my fair share of knuckle headed stuff as a kid. Maybe it was lucky I only had access to six-cylinder cars (V8s were the norm), maybe that was my dad...

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
It has been shown in studies that most folks do not use 100% of their cars abilities to avoid an accident.

I have personally witnessed one from the passenger seat where the driver simply did not use all the brakes had to offer. never even engaged abs.


In my Magnum, on a dry road, I COULD NOT engage the ABS! Full-force panic stop from 50MPH, it never engaged.

Quote:
Personally I believe most modern cars are far safer in a crash, but an alert and PREPARED driver is far more likely to avoid the crash no matter what he's driving. That is ultimately a far better outcome!

How many of us took our kids out on wet grass and practiced sliding and skidding and feeling how a car rotates, etc? You simply cannot equate even a one day pro course in driver safety with normal driver's ed techniques. Mega important to those of us who know what this really teaches! I remember my Mom ridiculing me when I took time off work to go to Skip Barber with my oldest.

Driver's Ed teaches parallel parking...


My uncle took me to a big parking lot in the snow...helped a lot.

Actually, I DIDN'T learn to parallel park in Drivers Ed...nor have to do so for my road test.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Shannow


Even now my better half asks why I spin a wheel, or do a stop, or push an understeer situation...conditions change, my tyres change, my car changes.

I've got mates who grew up riding dirtbikes on farms...their muscle memory is perfect when they need it...because they've done it.


Every time we have snow covered streets here, I do several emergency stops, when it's safe of course, just so that I know the traction limit and retain that muscle memory for the brake pedal. I do the same in other situations if I'm not sure of the traction the road offers me.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
It has been shown in studies that most folks do not use 100% of their cars abilities to avoid an accident.

I have personally witnessed one from the passenger seat where the driver simply did not use all the brakes had to offer. never even engaged abs.

Personally I believe most modern cars are far safer in a crash, but an alert and PREPARED driver is far more likely to avoid the crash no matter what he's driving. That is ultimately a far better outcome!

How many of us took our kids out on wet grass and practiced sliding and skidding and feeling how a car rotates, etc? You simply cannot equate even a one day pro course in driver safety with normal driver's ed techniques. Mega important to those of us who know what this really teaches! I remember my Mom ridiculing me when I took time off work to go to Skip Barber with my oldest.

Driver's Ed teaches parallel parking...



I've had more than a few teenage and adult students that needed multiple attempts in order to learn to use their brakes 100%. One student told me she thought that if she braked hard the airbag might go off. Seriously.
My wife was behind me 100% with respect to training our son how to drive properly- and she also approved the 1975 2002 as his first car.

 

[KenO]

Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
It has been shown in studies that most folks do not use 100% of their cars abilities to avoid an accident.

I have personally witnessed one from the passenger seat where the driver simply did not use all the brakes had to offer. never even engaged abs.

Personally I believe most modern cars are far safer in a crash, but an alert and PREPARED driver is far more likely to avoid the crash no matter what he's driving. That is ultimately a far better outcome!

How many of us took our kids out on wet grass and practiced sliding and skidding and feeling how a car rotates, etc? You simply cannot equate even a one day pro course in driver safety with normal driver's ed techniques. Mega important to those of us who know what this really teaches! I remember my Mom ridiculing me when I took time off work to go to Skip Barber with my oldest.

Driver's Ed teaches parallel parking...



I've had more than a few teenage and adult students that needed multiple attempts in order to learn to use their brakes 100%. One student told me she thought that if she braked hard the airbag might go off. Seriously.
My wife was behind me 100% with respect to training our son how to drive properly- and she also approved the 1975 2002 as his first car.



Oh ya. As you know, the braking exercise is the first warmup of the morning at Street Survival! Younger students especially are So timid with the cars inputs, but most especially the brakes. Sometimes it takes all day to get them to really use it, but when they get it - the smiles alone are worth it, because you KNOW it just clicked in their head.

 

[hattaresguy]

Most rich kids with expensive cars blow threw them like tissues because they simply don't care. Accidents are simply one result, also the lack of maintenance kills quite a few.

I'm a strong believer that kids should have a vested interest in a vehicle even if its not a very large one. I think if they spend some money and time on it they are less likely to mistreat it.