Oil for old smallblock?

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Quote:
If the oil does not contain an adequate amount of ZDDP to protect against wear, bad things can happen to the cam lobe and lifters. Typically, the peaks on the cam lobes that open the valves will wear down and round off, causing a huge drop in power. The bottoms of the lifters may be be scuffed and galled.


Quote:
If conventional motor oils (including synthetic oils and synthetic blends) are used in these engines, cam wear and cam failure can occur.


Source


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Quote:
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Doug's credentials hold far more weight, sorry Merk.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Doug's credentials hold far more weight, sorry Merk.


That's fine by me. I put the information out there for people to decide on their own what to do with it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Doug's credentials hold far more weight, sorry Merk.


That's fine by me. I put the information out there for people to decide on their own what to do with it.


No, you put your opinion out there knowing that it is going to royally pee some people off. Saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true and it is getting old... I'm guessing quite old for Doug, given his reaction.

 

[donnyj08]

A small block Chevy will run forever on anything. Pick a good 10w30 or 40 and use it. If you are concerned about extra Zink then I'd use the QS Defy. But honestly it's a small block Chevy. There are hundreds of thousands of them running at least a quarter million miles on cheap 10w30s and probably on poor service intervals as well.

 

[zray]

Mobil 1 15w-50 is specifically recommended. For the older flat tappet cam engines by Mobil. I've been using it in my vintage cars for over 19 years and a cumulative 250,000 + miles. The duty ranges from flat out long distance endurance racing to easy around town cruising. Zero lubrication issues, and no measurable wear, and no leaks. The list of vintage cars I've used it in include Jaguar E type (XKE), Ford Galaxie 500, Mustangs, Supercharged Shelby GT350's, Shelby Cobra, Triumph TR-4a, MGa, Aston Martin, VW Karmann Ghia, & Corvette Sting Ray,

If you are going to be driving in temperatures under 30 degrees, you might want to go with Mobil1 0w-40 I the winter.

Z.

 

[Junkie]

Originally Posted By: chainblu
If memory serves, the Comp Cams 252 is a fairly mild grind. Since you are already using 10w40, I'm confident the QS Defy 10w40 will serve you well.
You are correct, it's mild. It's just a basic truck engine, nothing special.
Originally Posted By: zray
Mobil 1 15w-50 is specifically recommended. For the older flat tappet cam engines by Mobil. I've been using it in my vintage cars for over 19 years and a cumulative 250,000 + miles. The duty ranges from flat out long distance endurance racing to easy around town cruising. Zero lubrication issues, and no measurable wear, and no leaks. The list of vintage cars I've used it in include Jaguar E type (XKE), Ford Galaxie 500, Mustangs, Supercharged Shelby GT350's, Shelby Cobra, Triumph TR-4a, MGa, Aston Martin, VW Karmann Ghia, & Corvette Sting Ray,

If you are going to be driving in temperatures under 30 degrees, you might want to go with Mobil1 0w-40 I the winter.

Z.
It's unlikely that I'll be driving it under 30 degrees. Last night was relatively chilly for here, and it hit 38.

 

[HighMileCummins]

Im running Super tech 15w-40 with Schaeffer's #132 additive and I like it. But like some others said, it's a fairly mild cam, plus as long as you're not running double springs with open pressure over 300lbs, a good oil like Defy would work well IMO.

 

[Red91]

Another Vote for Defy. I'd run 10W-30 or 10W-40. Some cheap 20W-50 would be good for top offs if it ends up using some oil, which, it more than likely will being a SBC. Mine did to the tune of about 1/2 a quart every 1,500-1,800 miles.

 

[zray]

Originally Posted By: Junkie
Originally Posted By: chainblu
If memory serves, the Comp Cams 252 is a fairly mild grind. Since you are already using 10w40, I'm confident the QS Defy 10w40 will serve you well.
You are correct, it's mild. It's just a basic truck engine, nothing special.
Originally Posted By: zray
Mobil 1 15w-50 is specifically recommended. For the older flat tappet cam engines by Mobil. I've been using it in my vintage cars for over 19 years and a cumulative 250,000 + miles. The duty ranges from flat out long distance endurance racing to easy around town cruising. Zero lubrication issues, and no measurable wear, and no leaks. The list of vintage cars I've used it in include Jaguar E type (XKE), Ford Galaxie 500, Mustangs, Supercharged Shelby GT350's, Shelby Cobra, Triumph TR-4a, MGa, Aston Martin, VW Karmann Ghia, & Corvette Sting Ray,

If you are going to be driving in temperatures under 30 degrees, you might want to go with Mobil1 0w-40 I the winter.

Z.

It's unlikely that I'll be driving it under 30 degrees. Last night was relatively chilly for here, and it hit 38.


Give the Mobil 1 15w-50 a try then.

Z

 

[ted s]

that are dougs qualifications? I guess the engineers at the cam mamufacturers are all wrong

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: ted s
that are dougs qualifications? I guess the engineers at the cam mamufacturers are all wrong


Many of the OEM's who continue to manufacture engines with "flat tappets" (non roller followers or mechanical/hydraulic non-roller HLA's) like Honda do not specify a "special" oil. This is because statements made by companies like Crane:

http://www.cranecams.com/uploads/breakin/548e.pdf

Quote:
Due to the EPA’s mandate for zinc removal from most motor oils


Are wrong. This is no mandate to remove zinc. It is there, and is in quantities not very different from what they were in the 60's and 70's in many oils (we've had a few old oils analyzed on here BTW). There were of course a number of oils with higher ZDDP levels (just like there are now), and there weren't much in the way of limits on the ZDDP levels until the API SM standard came about but even then, it only applied to certain grades of oil and OEM's still making non-roller tappet engines didn't specify oils with specific levels of ZDDP. The reason of course is that once the camshaft is broken in, it needs far less protection than during that break-in process, which IS correctly covered in that Crane PDF. You'll note they don't tell you to run a specific oil AFTER break-in, only DURING the break-in.

Where added ZDDP may be needed is with wilder-than-stock aftermarket camshafts with increased ramp rates and requiring heavier springs. These will have demands above and beyond the OEM profiles for protection so running an oil with greater levels of ZDDP like M1 15w-50, M1 0w-40 or an HDEO like Delvac 1 or Rotella can be beneficial and perhaps even necessary. As I said, we ran a Lunatti Voodoo in an SBC for 10's of thousands of Kilometers in my buddy's dad's S10. It was broken in on Esso XD3 15w-40 and that's what it was run on for a number of years until we pulled it and converted the engine to roller. There was absolutely no unusual wear on the cam or lifters, despite it being a very wild camshaft for a flat tappet grind.

This is also why while many bring up the GM small blocks from the 80's with broomstick'd camshafts as some sort of indication that increased ZDDP is required, you don't see the same examples being set with SBF's or Mopar engines. GM had a metallurgy issue with the cams for a number of years and they'd lose their lobes no matter what you ran for oil. The 351's and 302's didn't have that problem, on the same oils, and still don't, even on the modern SN stuff. There are a number of those old girls still ripping around of course.

Can using an SN-style oil on a much wilder than stock flat tappet grind be problematic? Yes. And that would be the case even with older oils that had lower levels of ZDDP straight back to the 60's. Aggressive profiles have more AW demands than OEM-style or OEM-replacement grinds. And THAT is what dictates what kind of oil you need to run, not just the fact that it is flat tappet.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: ted s
that are dougs qualifications? I guess the engineers at the cam mamufacturers are all wrong


Many of the OEM's who continue to manufacture engines with "flat tappets" (non roller followers or mechanical/hydraulic non-roller HLA's) like Honda do not specify a "special" oil. This is because statements made by companies like Crane:

http://www.cranecams.com/uploads/breakin/548e.pdf

Quote:
Due to the EPA’s mandate for zinc removal from most motor oils


Are wrong. This is no mandate to remove zinc. It is there, and is in quantities not very different from what they were in the 60's and 70's in many oils (we've had a few old oils analyzed on here BTW). There were of course a number of oils with higher ZDDP levels (just like there are now), and there weren't much in the way of limits on the ZDDP levels until the API SM standard came about but even then, it only applied to certain grades of oil and OEM's still making non-roller tappet engines didn't specify oils with specific levels of ZDDP. The reason of course is that once the camshaft is broken in, it needs far less protection than during that break-in process, which IS correctly covered in that Crane PDF. You'll note they don't tell you to run a specific oil AFTER break-in, only DURING the break-in.

Where added ZDDP may be needed is with wilder-than-stock aftermarket camshafts with increased ramp rates and requiring heavier springs. These will have demands above and beyond the OEM profiles for protection so running an oil with greater levels of ZDDP like M1 15w-50, M1 0w-40 or an HDEO like Delvac 1 or Rotella can be beneficial and perhaps even necessary. As I said, we ran a Lunatti Voodoo in an SBC for 10's of thousands of Kilometers in my buddy's dad's S10. It was broken in on Esso XD3 15w-40 and that's what it was run on for a number of years until we pulled it and converted the engine to roller. There was absolutely no unusual wear on the cam or lifters, despite it being a very wild camshaft for a flat tappet grind.

This is also why while many bring up the GM small blocks from the 80's with broomstick'd camshafts as some sort of indication that increased ZDDP is required, you don't see the same examples being set with SBF's or Mopar engines. GM had a metallurgy issue with the cams for a number of years and they'd lose their lobes no matter what you ran for oil. The 351's and 302's didn't have that problem, on the same oils, and still don't, even on the modern SN stuff. There are a number of those old girls still ripping around of course.

Can using an SN-style oil on a much wilder than stock flat tappet grind be problematic? Yes. And that would be the case even with older oils that had lower levels of ZDDP straight back to the 60's. Aggressive profiles have more AW demands than OEM-style or OEM-replacement grinds. And THAT is what dictates what kind of oil you need to run, not just the fact that it is flat tappet.


And with that this thread is covered.

And if the poster is in any way interested in Doug Hillary's "qualifications" and not just saying it to be a jerk I suggest going to his profile and reading his many posts. Any reasonable person that reads then will instantly know that the man is not the average bear and he posts based on decades of experience working with oil companies and European oem's.
With or without "credentials" the man is a wealth of relevant info and we are very fortunate to have such a man here among us common folk.
So I suggest taking an hour or 2 and look over what the man has posted over the years. They will speak volumes and you'll understand why this sites members hold him in suck high regard.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
[font:Verdana]Joe Gibbs Hot Rod oil will have the necessary ZDDP additive.

Merk, it's pretty bad when two oil changes cost more than a camshaft and set of lifters, though.

If Joe Gibbs thinks they've solved the problems of small blocks eating cams, well, I highly doubt it. It was likely a metallurgy issue and not a ZDDP issue, since high ZDDP oils did not help, and valve spring pressures were far from excessive in things like a 305.

ted s: Overkill covered most of it. Comp Cams does the same thing - they're worried about break in, and not afterwards, assuming you're running something without huge pressures. Just about every taxi I had with a SBC engine had one cam replacement in its lifetime, until the later generation of SBC engines. As Overkill noted, other engines of that vintage did not have the issue.

Chevy engines are easy and cheap to work on. $15-$20 a quart oil isn't going to help matters whatsoever, except make one's wallet lighter in case the eventuality passes where the cam and lifters need replacement.

 

[BrocLuno]

Comp has lost cam and lifter set fairly often over in the performance world. Their metallurgy is maybe not the best either...

In a lot of cases I think this comes down to lifter face finish and hardness along with correct dimensions. I see destroyed lifters with the cams damaged, but intact. I suspect lifter failure first... There are lifters coming in from who knows where in the cheaper sets...

For serious engines including truck and boat motors that will live under load at 3,500 and above for extended periods, I usually suggest Howard's Cams and Direct Lube Lifters. For strip engines using HFT cams, I suggest Crower Cam Saver Lifters.

If you buy Howard's sets, they come with a 5 year guarantee. Howard's requires Brad Penn (or equal) for break-in... I'd have a receipt for Brad Penn or Valvoline VR1 on hand for a few months until I was certain the cam broke in well...

AFAIK, Crower is the only company publishing face finish and hardness data to the public... Yeah, the lifters are a bit pricier, but what cost is a tear-down?

For oil, I always use fleet oils on flat tappets (Delo, Delvac, Rotella).

The biggest deal is to make sure the lifters are spinning properly at start-up. If one gets stuck and does not spin, you will loose that lifter/lobe in a heart beat ...

 

[zray]

Been using Mobil 1 15w-50 in numerous vintage autos for over 16 years and many tens of thousands of miles. Never had a single cam / lifter failure. It has plenty of zddp (1300/1200 ppm ) for flat tappet engines.

Here is short list of cars I have used it in:
Shelby Cobra (original) 289's and 427's, Jaguar E type, big Austin Healy's, Triumph TR4. TR-6, & Spitfire. MG A & B. Shelby Mustangs, Mustangs, small and big block, Corvettes & Sting Rays, and numerous assorted domestic cars of the 1950's thru the 1970's.

Z

 

[rokwldr]

I always used M1 15-50 in all my cars. the last one was a 1993 S-10 2.8 and it went 175,000. Now I use 10-30, and with 90,000 on my 2006 GMC Canyon no troubles. I guess thin is in foe newer cars. Always use M1 no problems there either.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: Junkie
I've read that ZDDP helps but I've also read that it doesn't...


This is what happens when you don't use ZDDP on an engine with flat bottom lifters:

 

[Olas]

Redline 5w30.
\endthread.

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

Mobil I 5w-30. See 540ratblog.wordpress.com. This oil is rated #11 out of 159 in this comparison of oils and engine wear. Not by any means the definitive treatise on motor oil but a very good discussion. Regards

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
This is what happens when you don't use ZDDP on an engine with flat bottom lifters:

There is one problem with that - you're helping promote the myth that there are readily available oils that have no ZDDP. That's what the additive salesmen and boutiques would like to have us believe, but it's not true. Are you selling additives, now, Merk?