ls1mike
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Teen crashes
I think this has been discussed here before but it is the first time I have seen a study about it.
I think this has been discussed here before but it is the first time I have seen a study about it.
Interesting crash data
- Thread starter ls1mike
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Adults can afford more expensive cars than teenagers.
In a student study/project by graduate students at UCLA a few years ago it was discovered that rich families that put beginning teenage drivers in very expensive cars experienced an almost 100% percent crash rate in the first 12 months counting only bodily injury accidents or accidents that totaled the vehicle. Minor fender bender accidents were too numerous to count. The mortality rate was 3 times that of the general teenage population. I would suspect that these expensive cars had all the latest safety devices offered.
Teenage accidents speak more toward the drivers then safety devices. When you were young did you drive an older vehicle in an unsafe manner, now and then?
In a student study/project by graduate students at UCLA a few years ago it was discovered that rich families that put beginning teenage drivers in very expensive cars experienced an almost 100% percent crash rate in the first 12 months counting only bodily injury accidents or accidents that totaled the vehicle. Minor fender bender accidents were too numerous to count. The mortality rate was 3 times that of the general teenage population. I would suspect that these expensive cars had all the latest safety devices offered.
Teenage accidents speak more toward the drivers then safety devices. When you were young did you drive an older vehicle in an unsafe manner, now and then?
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Adults can afford more expensive cars than teenagers.
In a student study/project by graduate students at UCLA a few years ago it was discovered that rich families that put beginning teenage drivers in very expensive cars experienced an almost 100% percent crash rate in the first 12 months counting only bodily injury accidents or accidents that totaled the vehicle. Minor fender bender accidents were too numerous to count. The mortality rate was 3 times that of the general teenage population. I would suspect that these expensive cars had all the latest safety devices offered.
Teenage accidents speak more toward the drivers then safety devices. When you were young did you drive an older vehicle in an unsafe manner, now and then?
Did the participants in the study you cite all get cars with over 300 hp?
There are newer, unfancy, unpowerful cars with more advanced safety features that come in at less than a new Corvette.
Adults can afford more expensive cars than teenagers.
In a student study/project by graduate students at UCLA a few years ago it was discovered that rich families that put beginning teenage drivers in very expensive cars experienced an almost 100% percent crash rate in the first 12 months counting only bodily injury accidents or accidents that totaled the vehicle. Minor fender bender accidents were too numerous to count. The mortality rate was 3 times that of the general teenage population. I would suspect that these expensive cars had all the latest safety devices offered.
Teenage accidents speak more toward the drivers then safety devices. When you were young did you drive an older vehicle in an unsafe manner, now and then?
Did the participants in the study you cite all get cars with over 300 hp?
There are newer, unfancy, unpowerful cars with more advanced safety features that come in at less than a new Corvette.
trust me...it is not the car that is killing them but inexperience and simply lack of wisdom. Some researchers believe that 16 years old is too young to drive because the brain is not fully developed and the part of the brain that makes executive decisions (safety vs risk) is not fully developed until age 21.
My kids (3) drive a 2008 Rav4 FWD. With each new driver they get new brakes, new battery and new tires. I even put stainless steel brake lines on for a stronger brake pedal. So they have ABS VSC and air bags.
Now kid #3 is the primary driver at age 16. Kid #2 (21) is a part timer when home from college.
I say a prayer every time they leave the driveway.
My kids (3) drive a 2008 Rav4 FWD. With each new driver they get new brakes, new battery and new tires. I even put stainless steel brake lines on for a stronger brake pedal. So they have ABS VSC and air bags.
Now kid #3 is the primary driver at age 16. Kid #2 (21) is a part timer when home from college.
I say a prayer every time they leave the driveway.
I'd like to see the stats with these same cars but a different demographic to clarify just how safe they are.
This article to me seems to be trying to push some idea that parents need to be buying more expensive,safer,cars to lessen the likelihood of fatality when the truth is if you put an inexperienced driver behind the wheel of a more capable automobile they will drive that automobile to its limits which translates to faster.
Give a kid a dodge omni. They drive it to its 70mph top speed,total it and walk away.
Put that same kid in a new mustang and how fast you figure he/she will be going when it's totalled.
It's not the car that's unsafe it's the driver.
This article to me seems to be trying to push some idea that parents need to be buying more expensive,safer,cars to lessen the likelihood of fatality when the truth is if you put an inexperienced driver behind the wheel of a more capable automobile they will drive that automobile to its limits which translates to faster.
Give a kid a dodge omni. They drive it to its 70mph top speed,total it and walk away.
Put that same kid in a new mustang and how fast you figure he/she will be going when it's totalled.
It's not the car that's unsafe it's the driver.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
I'd like to see the stats with these same cars but a different demographic to clarify just how safe they are.
This article to me seems to be trying to push some idea that parents need to be buying more expensive,safer,cars to lessen the likelihood of fatality when the truth is if you put an inexperienced driver behind the wheel of a more capable automobile they will drive that automobile to its limits which translates to faster.
Give a kid a dodge omni. They drive it to its 70mph top speed,total it and walk away.
Put that same kid in a new mustang and how fast you figure he/she will be going when it's totalled.
It's not the car that's unsafe it's the driver.
Your theory isn't supported by the data that's right in front of you.
I'd like to see the stats with these same cars but a different demographic to clarify just how safe they are.
This article to me seems to be trying to push some idea that parents need to be buying more expensive,safer,cars to lessen the likelihood of fatality when the truth is if you put an inexperienced driver behind the wheel of a more capable automobile they will drive that automobile to its limits which translates to faster.
Give a kid a dodge omni. They drive it to its 70mph top speed,total it and walk away.
Put that same kid in a new mustang and how fast you figure he/she will be going when it's totalled.
It's not the car that's unsafe it's the driver.
Your theory isn't supported by the data that's right in front of you.
Originally Posted By: CT8
Most teens are really invincible and well... stupid. I remember well.
Yeah...^^^this^^^
You rarely read of a horrific accident where the driver was 58 unless he was drunk.
Most teens are really invincible and well... stupid. I remember well.
Yeah...^^^this^^^
You rarely read of a horrific accident where the driver was 58 unless he was drunk.
I would like to put my kids in a modern E class mercedes with sport brakes, suspension and tires, combined with 80hp and no in car entertainment.
My first car, my legs were in front of the front wheels. I knew that a crash would result in the loss of my legs. It also had inadequate brakes, handling and power.
My first & last accident (I was hit) was in my 30's.
My first car, my legs were in front of the front wheels. I knew that a crash would result in the loss of my legs. It also had inadequate brakes, handling and power.
My first & last accident (I was hit) was in my 30's.
Originally Posted By: CBR.worm
I would like to put my kids in a modern E class mercedes with sport brakes, suspension and tires, combined with 80hp and no in car entertainment.
My first car, my legs were in front of the front wheels. I knew that a crash would result in the loss of my legs. It also had inadequate brakes, handling and power.
My first & last accident (I was hit) was in my 30's.
Yah I took my road test in a '65 VW micro bus
I would like to put my kids in a modern E class mercedes with sport brakes, suspension and tires, combined with 80hp and no in car entertainment.
My first car, my legs were in front of the front wheels. I knew that a crash would result in the loss of my legs. It also had inadequate brakes, handling and power.
My first & last accident (I was hit) was in my 30's.
Yah I took my road test in a '65 VW micro bus
Originally Posted By: Mykl
Your theory isn't supported by the data that's right in front of you.
The same data can support multiple theories, depending who's footing the bill for the study.
Statistically speaking I'm more likely to crash in a two door Civic, than a Camry, but I never had an accident that was my deemed as my fault. Which data point would insurance use if I had a Civic? I'm betting the one that would allow them to charge higher insurance premium.
Your theory isn't supported by the data that's right in front of you.
The same data can support multiple theories, depending who's footing the bill for the study.
Statistically speaking I'm more likely to crash in a two door Civic, than a Camry, but I never had an accident that was my deemed as my fault. Which data point would insurance use if I had a Civic? I'm betting the one that would allow them to charge higher insurance premium.
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When an unlicensed 16 year old driver kills 5 people in the car he is driving and after spending time in the hospital is not charged there is something really wrong with our legal system.
Link to news story.
Link to news story.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Give a kid a dodge omni. They drive it to its 70mph top speed,total it and walk away.
I witnessed an low-speed accident of a Dodge Omni and was first on the scene to render aid. The driver was messed up bad by the steering wheel. The accident was caused by torque steer from a blowout.
No way would I allow one of my kids to drive such a piece of unsafe piece of [censored]. (BTW I own a more modern Dodge).
Give a kid a dodge omni. They drive it to its 70mph top speed,total it and walk away.
I witnessed an low-speed accident of a Dodge Omni and was first on the scene to render aid. The driver was messed up bad by the steering wheel. The accident was caused by torque steer from a blowout.
No way would I allow one of my kids to drive such a piece of unsafe piece of [censored]. (BTW I own a more modern Dodge).
Originally Posted By: Clevy
I'd like to see the stats with these same cars but a different demographic to clarify just how safe they are.
This article to me seems to be trying to push some idea that parents need to be buying more expensive,safer,cars to lessen the likelihood of fatality when the truth is if you put an inexperienced driver behind the wheel of a more capable automobile they will drive that automobile to its limits which translates to faster.
Give a kid a dodge omni. They drive it to its 70mph top speed,total it and walk away.
Put that same kid in a new mustang and how fast you figure he/she will be going when it's totalled.
It's not the car that's unsafe it's the driver.
Preface: I teach car control & defensive driving, am a long-time autocrosser, and build & drive road race cars.
Put the kid in an Omni, or any other old car. ANYTHING older, regardless of HP. Put them in a new Camry, and the car will still hold the road around a bend as well an '80's Corvette did new, and probably better. With 1/10th of the chassis feedback thru the seat, floorpan, or steering wheel. New vehicles are being built to be so numb to the driver, and SO good from an engineering perspective wrt the chassis & suspension, that these kids can be going EXTREMELY fast, yank the wheel, and in good conditions - probably live. Get ice on those roads however, and they're so used to the car just responding to their inputs, and it doesn't respond - the crash is exponentially worse than in an old car. [censored] you can go run trackdays with modern econoboxes right off the showroom floor without brake fade and just floor it everywhere and be a-ok.
That made sense in my head at least, hope it does here....
I'd like to see the stats with these same cars but a different demographic to clarify just how safe they are.
This article to me seems to be trying to push some idea that parents need to be buying more expensive,safer,cars to lessen the likelihood of fatality when the truth is if you put an inexperienced driver behind the wheel of a more capable automobile they will drive that automobile to its limits which translates to faster.
Give a kid a dodge omni. They drive it to its 70mph top speed,total it and walk away.
Put that same kid in a new mustang and how fast you figure he/she will be going when it's totalled.
It's not the car that's unsafe it's the driver.
Preface: I teach car control & defensive driving, am a long-time autocrosser, and build & drive road race cars.
Put the kid in an Omni, or any other old car. ANYTHING older, regardless of HP. Put them in a new Camry, and the car will still hold the road around a bend as well an '80's Corvette did new, and probably better. With 1/10th of the chassis feedback thru the seat, floorpan, or steering wheel. New vehicles are being built to be so numb to the driver, and SO good from an engineering perspective wrt the chassis & suspension, that these kids can be going EXTREMELY fast, yank the wheel, and in good conditions - probably live. Get ice on those roads however, and they're so used to the car just responding to their inputs, and it doesn't respond - the crash is exponentially worse than in an old car. [censored] you can go run trackdays with modern econoboxes right off the showroom floor without brake fade and just floor it everywhere and be a-ok.
That made sense in my head at least, hope it does here....
Originally Posted By: KenO
Originally Posted By: Clevy
I'd like to see the stats with these same cars but a different demographic to clarify just how safe they are.
This article to me seems to be trying to push some idea that parents need to be buying more expensive,safer,cars to lessen the likelihood of fatality when the truth is if you put an inexperienced driver behind the wheel of a more capable automobile they will drive that automobile to its limits which translates to faster.
Give a kid a dodge omni. They drive it to its 70mph top speed,total it and walk away.
Put that same kid in a new mustang and how fast you figure he/she will be going when it's totalled.
It's not the car that's unsafe it's the driver.
Preface: I teach car control & defensive driving, am a long-time autocrosser, and build & drive road race cars.
Put the kid in an Omni, or any other old car. ANYTHING older, regardless of HP. Put them in a new Camry, and the car will still hold the road around a bend as well an '80's Corvette did new, and probably better. With 1/10th of the chassis feedback thru the seat, floorpan, or steering wheel. New vehicles are being built to be so numb to the driver, and SO good from an engineering perspective wrt the chassis & suspension, that these kids can be going EXTREMELY fast, yank the wheel, and in good conditions - probably live. Get ice on those roads however, and they're so used to the car just responding to their inputs, and it doesn't respond - the crash is exponentially worse than in an old car. [censored] you can go run trackdays with modern econoboxes right off the showroom floor without brake fade and just floor it everywhere and be a-ok.
That made sense in my head at least, hope it does here....
Most drivers these days are what is numb! How many have the basic skill of operating a manual tranny? Just step on the gas pedal and go,go ,go!.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
I'd like to see the stats with these same cars but a different demographic to clarify just how safe they are.
This article to me seems to be trying to push some idea that parents need to be buying more expensive,safer,cars to lessen the likelihood of fatality when the truth is if you put an inexperienced driver behind the wheel of a more capable automobile they will drive that automobile to its limits which translates to faster.
Give a kid a dodge omni. They drive it to its 70mph top speed,total it and walk away.
Put that same kid in a new mustang and how fast you figure he/she will be going when it's totalled.
It's not the car that's unsafe it's the driver.
Preface: I teach car control & defensive driving, am a long-time autocrosser, and build & drive road race cars.
Put the kid in an Omni, or any other old car. ANYTHING older, regardless of HP. Put them in a new Camry, and the car will still hold the road around a bend as well an '80's Corvette did new, and probably better. With 1/10th of the chassis feedback thru the seat, floorpan, or steering wheel. New vehicles are being built to be so numb to the driver, and SO good from an engineering perspective wrt the chassis & suspension, that these kids can be going EXTREMELY fast, yank the wheel, and in good conditions - probably live. Get ice on those roads however, and they're so used to the car just responding to their inputs, and it doesn't respond - the crash is exponentially worse than in an old car. [censored] you can go run trackdays with modern econoboxes right off the showroom floor without brake fade and just floor it everywhere and be a-ok.
That made sense in my head at least, hope it does here....
Most drivers these days are what is numb! How many have the basic skill of operating a manual tranny? Just step on the gas pedal and go,go ,go!.
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: KenO
Originally Posted By: Clevy
I'd like to see the stats with these same cars but a different demographic to clarify just how safe they are.
This article to me seems to be trying to push some idea that parents need to be buying more expensive,safer,cars to lessen the likelihood of fatality when the truth is if you put an inexperienced driver behind the wheel of a more capable automobile they will drive that automobile to its limits which translates to faster.
Give a kid a dodge omni. They drive it to its 70mph top speed,total it and walk away.
Put that same kid in a new mustang and how fast you figure he/she will be going when it's totalled.
It's not the car that's unsafe it's the driver.
Preface: I teach car control & defensive driving, am a long-time autocrosser, and build & drive road race cars.
Put the kid in an Omni, or any other old car. ANYTHING older, regardless of HP. Put them in a new Camry, and the car will still hold the road around a bend as well an '80's Corvette did new, and probably better. With 1/10th of the chassis feedback thru the seat, floorpan, or steering wheel. New vehicles are being built to be so numb to the driver, and SO good from an engineering perspective wrt the chassis & suspension, that these kids can be going EXTREMELY fast, yank the wheel, and in good conditions - probably live. Get ice on those roads however, and they're so used to the car just responding to their inputs, and it doesn't respond - the crash is exponentially worse than in an old car. [censored] you can go run trackdays with modern econoboxes right off the showroom floor without brake fade and just floor it everywhere and be a-ok.
That made sense in my head at least, hope it does here....
Most drivers these days are what is numb! How many have the basic skill of operating a manual tranny? Just step on the gas pedal and go,go ,go!.
That's the point I was trying to make. In the older cheaper car you were more attached to the road. There was more steering feedback,more body roll etc. so going fast isn't as comfortable nor as smooth.
Fast forward to today I've got stability control,traction control,abs,brakes that cycle on when wet to dry them out so braking performance isn't hindered so kids are in a glorified video game really.
Add to that the nav screens,DVD players and video game consoles in the car they might forget they actually have to operate this thing.
And if the nanny controls fail they'll have no idea how to recover and the fire crew will be scraping them off the pavement.
So we have the option of putting them in an older less safe car that will be driven slower,or put them in a new uber safe vehicle and that same collision occurs at 90 instead of 60.
Outcomes will be similar.
Originally Posted By: KenO
Originally Posted By: Clevy
I'd like to see the stats with these same cars but a different demographic to clarify just how safe they are.
This article to me seems to be trying to push some idea that parents need to be buying more expensive,safer,cars to lessen the likelihood of fatality when the truth is if you put an inexperienced driver behind the wheel of a more capable automobile they will drive that automobile to its limits which translates to faster.
Give a kid a dodge omni. They drive it to its 70mph top speed,total it and walk away.
Put that same kid in a new mustang and how fast you figure he/she will be going when it's totalled.
It's not the car that's unsafe it's the driver.
Preface: I teach car control & defensive driving, am a long-time autocrosser, and build & drive road race cars.
Put the kid in an Omni, or any other old car. ANYTHING older, regardless of HP. Put them in a new Camry, and the car will still hold the road around a bend as well an '80's Corvette did new, and probably better. With 1/10th of the chassis feedback thru the seat, floorpan, or steering wheel. New vehicles are being built to be so numb to the driver, and SO good from an engineering perspective wrt the chassis & suspension, that these kids can be going EXTREMELY fast, yank the wheel, and in good conditions - probably live. Get ice on those roads however, and they're so used to the car just responding to their inputs, and it doesn't respond - the crash is exponentially worse than in an old car. [censored] you can go run trackdays with modern econoboxes right off the showroom floor without brake fade and just floor it everywhere and be a-ok.
That made sense in my head at least, hope it does here....
Most drivers these days are what is numb! How many have the basic skill of operating a manual tranny? Just step on the gas pedal and go,go ,go!.
That's the point I was trying to make. In the older cheaper car you were more attached to the road. There was more steering feedback,more body roll etc. so going fast isn't as comfortable nor as smooth.
Fast forward to today I've got stability control,traction control,abs,brakes that cycle on when wet to dry them out so braking performance isn't hindered so kids are in a glorified video game really.
Add to that the nav screens,DVD players and video game consoles in the car they might forget they actually have to operate this thing.
And if the nanny controls fail they'll have no idea how to recover and the fire crew will be scraping them off the pavement.
So we have the option of putting them in an older less safe car that will be driven slower,or put them in a new uber safe vehicle and that same collision occurs at 90 instead of 60.
Outcomes will be similar.
Being an HPDE instructor since 1996 I believe the most important safety factor is the person behind the wheel. I sent my 16 year old son to the Two Day Teen School at the BMW Performance Center followed by the one day Street Survival course.
His first car was my 1975 '02, upgraded with E21 Recaros, rebuilt front seat belt assemblies, and an Alpine AM/FM/CD/SiriusXM head unit. This caused much tut-tutting from the hand-wringing busybodies. I told him if he drove it for one year with no tickets or at-fault accidents I'd discuss an upgrade. When he passed that test he opted for my wife's 130k mile X3(now approaching 170k). He just turned 20 and is still accident and ticket free.
He has shagged a few rides from instructors at HPDEs and will attend his first one this summer- probably driving my ti so that he can learn how to handle a car without a boat load of electronic nannies.
His first car was my 1975 '02, upgraded with E21 Recaros, rebuilt front seat belt assemblies, and an Alpine AM/FM/CD/SiriusXM head unit. This caused much tut-tutting from the hand-wringing busybodies. I told him if he drove it for one year with no tickets or at-fault accidents I'd discuss an upgrade. When he passed that test he opted for my wife's 130k mile X3(now approaching 170k). He just turned 20 and is still accident and ticket free.
He has shagged a few rides from instructors at HPDEs and will attend his first one this summer- probably driving my ti so that he can learn how to handle a car without a boat load of electronic nannies.
Absolutely agreed that the DRIVER is far more important than the car.
I have a 180 mph capable car. It has never been in any accident, well over 100k miles now. I also have some guns. None have shot anyone.
All of my children have had some sort of professional driver training as well as extensive instruction from me.
I have an extensive history of driving about 60-80k miles per year across almost 45 years now. In the first ten years there were some scattered issues that tapered off as I figured out how it works.
Now the only time I am in an accident is when some numbnutz hits me before I can get out of his way. Got rear ended recently sitting at a light. Had nowhere to go, saw her coming. The driver was 17 with cell phone in hand and NO SEAT BELT!
She'll either figure it out or be an unsafe driver for life, it's really sad that her parents never sent her to an advanced driving course!
I have a 180 mph capable car. It has never been in any accident, well over 100k miles now. I also have some guns. None have shot anyone.
All of my children have had some sort of professional driver training as well as extensive instruction from me.
I have an extensive history of driving about 60-80k miles per year across almost 45 years now. In the first ten years there were some scattered issues that tapered off as I figured out how it works.
Now the only time I am in an accident is when some numbnutz hits me before I can get out of his way. Got rear ended recently sitting at a light. Had nowhere to go, saw her coming. The driver was 17 with cell phone in hand and NO SEAT BELT!
She'll either figure it out or be an unsafe driver for life, it's really sad that her parents never sent her to an advanced driving course!
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