Why The Dislike For 20W-50?
- Thread starter Red91
- Start date
- Status
[/quote]
I think every auto manufacturer would disagree with you and remember the motivation for the development of the as light as possible on start-up OEM 0W-20s was to reduce start-up wear with the constant on/off cycles of hybrid engines. And when these engines are started, there is no gradual warm-up but instant elevated rpms under load.
[/quote]
Probably got more to do with matching oil viscosity to bearing clearances hasn't it?
I think every auto manufacturer would disagree with you and remember the motivation for the development of the as light as possible on start-up OEM 0W-20s was to reduce start-up wear with the constant on/off cycles of hybrid engines. And when these engines are started, there is no gradual warm-up but instant elevated rpms under load.
[/quote]
Probably got more to do with matching oil viscosity to bearing clearances hasn't it?
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2006
- Messages
- 2,326
So an oil with an HTHSV of 3.0 is now considered light? Okay...
Originally Posted By: expat
I made the mistake of using 20w-50 exclusively in a 4 cyl Toyota PU here in Canada.
As a result the engine was showing some loss of compression when the truck rusted out at 500k miles
Maybe it was the 500,000 miles that caused the low compression, not the oil
I made the mistake of using 20w-50 exclusively in a 4 cyl Toyota PU here in Canada.
As a result the engine was showing some loss of compression when the truck rusted out at 500k miles
Maybe it was the 500,000 miles that caused the low compression, not the oil
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Originally Posted By: expat
I made the mistake of using 20w-50 exclusively in a 4 cyl Toyota PU here in Canada.
As a result the engine was showing some loss of compression when the truck rusted out at 500k miles
Maybe it was the 500,000 miles that caused the low compression, not the oil
Maybe it just needed a valve job.
Originally Posted By: expat
I made the mistake of using 20w-50 exclusively in a 4 cyl Toyota PU here in Canada.
As a result the engine was showing some loss of compression when the truck rusted out at 500k miles
Maybe it was the 500,000 miles that caused the low compression, not the oil
Maybe it just needed a valve job.
Originally Posted By: Skid
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Better fuel economy may be the least important advantage of thinner oils. The main advantages are less engine wear particularly on start-up and
OK, CATERHAM ...again...please show, in industry standard testing, SAE papers, ASTM papers, or any other credible source, which isn't fluff from manufacturers, where thinner oils provide less start-up wear than any other grade rated for the temperature.
Can start with Sequence IV if you like, which is the industry standard for warm up wear.
I don't think thick/thin matters wrt startup wear unless you're at such an extreme that you can't pump the thick stuff at all or it won't drain back to the pain.
Some points (I'm talking plain bearings here, not cams, rings, etc):
1. You start out in boundary lubrication whether thick or thin.
2. You transition to hydrodynamic lubrication when the engine starts rotating.
3. A thicker oil should form a film faster (thicker film at a lower rpm), but the engine might spin faster with a thinner oil, so I think it's a wash.
4. Don't bother talking about thinner oil getting to the parts faster because there is residual oil between the journals and the bearings to form the films. It's not like your engine disassembles itself every time it shuts down and cleans off all the oil. Your bearings are never dry, and the residual oil will not burn off that fast.
Anyway, I think thick or thin for startup wear is a wash.
Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Wow.
A bit harsh I think.
Caterham has his position,which I for one am glad because he provides an alternative point of view.
Yin needs yang
Alpha requires omega
I may not always agree with everyone here's posts however I am glad that they post. I like that there's is open discussion on these topics.
Without caterham we'd all be thicker is better,and how much fun would that be.
A bit harsh you think? Now that IS hilarious. Let me refresh your memory of a post you made in response to one of mine:
"Absolute gold here.
Wants the best regardless of cost but uses syn 3 in his harley.
HILLARIOUS to say the least.
Then comments on how great it is in all 3 holes.
Even better than HILLARIOUS.
The tranny has gears,thus a gear oil is the right fluid and is BEST in that application.
The primary needs a fluid to keep the clutches cool,to wash away debris and still maintain friction. Any hdeo,like Rotella costs way less and dies exactly what's required.
And syn 3 it citgo junk. The additive package is weak at best.
But you want the best,regardless of cost.
Redline shockproof is the best for the tranny. Second best is any other gear oil.
The primary would be fine with rotella. I use it in my significantly modified harley and I can't get the stock clutch to slip.
And the engine is fine with any hdeo 15w-40,but if it's real hot thicker is smart.
I'm not trying to be a jerk here,I'm just pointing out the absurd nature of your post compared to the products you think are best
Most harley guys are duped into thinking because the oil has a harley badge it's the best. It's because they follow blindly without actually researching anything. It's common in the harley world.
It's almost like some guys see that badge and their sensibilities turn off."
You did not even direct your response to me as if I was not even worthy of direct contact. Then you proceed to express your contempt of most HD riders contending that they are easily duped, blindly follow the bar and shield, and have no sensibilities. Knowledge is a wonderful thing. However, it makes very little difference how much knowledge you have on a subject if you do not know how to transmit that knowledge to others. Talking down to someone who puts up a post you do not agree with, particularly a relatively new guy,is not the way to successfully impart your knowledge. I want to thank you for the warm welcome and let you know that I have no interest whatsoever in anything you have to say.
Dave
And it's applies here how.
My contempt for poseur wallet bikers with their dew rags and their 2000 mile a year rides have nothing to do with oil,or this thread.
If you've got an issue with my opinion by all means take it up with me.
I see chumps every day trying to buy an image,like they're bad or something.
Good for a laugh anyway.
As was your comment.
See I'm not trying to buy anything. I am what I am. See I don't have to pretend.
Merry Christmas.
Maybe you'll get that new harley jacket you always wanted.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Better fuel economy may be the least important advantage of thinner oils. The main advantages are less engine wear particularly on start-up and
OK, CATERHAM ...again...please show, in industry standard testing, SAE papers, ASTM papers, or any other credible source, which isn't fluff from manufacturers, where thinner oils provide less start-up wear than any other grade rated for the temperature.
Can start with Sequence IV if you like, which is the industry standard for warm up wear.
I don't think thick/thin matters wrt startup wear unless you're at such an extreme that you can't pump the thick stuff at all or it won't drain back to the pain.
Some points (I'm talking plain bearings here, not cams, rings, etc):
1. You start out in boundary lubrication whether thick or thin.
2. You transition to hydrodynamic lubrication when the engine starts rotating.
3. A thicker oil should form a film faster (thicker film at a lower rpm), but the engine might spin faster with a thinner oil, so I think it's a wash.
4. Don't bother talking about thinner oil getting to the parts faster because there is residual oil between the journals and the bearings to form the films. It's not like your engine disassembles itself every time it shuts down and cleans off all the oil. Your bearings are never dry, and the residual oil will not burn off that fast.
Anyway, I think thick or thin for startup wear is a wash.
Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Wow.
A bit harsh I think.
Caterham has his position,which I for one am glad because he provides an alternative point of view.
Yin needs yang
Alpha requires omega
I may not always agree with everyone here's posts however I am glad that they post. I like that there's is open discussion on these topics.
Without caterham we'd all be thicker is better,and how much fun would that be.
A bit harsh you think? Now that IS hilarious. Let me refresh your memory of a post you made in response to one of mine:
"Absolute gold here.
Wants the best regardless of cost but uses syn 3 in his harley.
HILLARIOUS to say the least.
Then comments on how great it is in all 3 holes.
Even better than HILLARIOUS.
The tranny has gears,thus a gear oil is the right fluid and is BEST in that application.
The primary needs a fluid to keep the clutches cool,to wash away debris and still maintain friction. Any hdeo,like Rotella costs way less and dies exactly what's required.
And syn 3 it citgo junk. The additive package is weak at best.
But you want the best,regardless of cost.
Redline shockproof is the best for the tranny. Second best is any other gear oil.
The primary would be fine with rotella. I use it in my significantly modified harley and I can't get the stock clutch to slip.
And the engine is fine with any hdeo 15w-40,but if it's real hot thicker is smart.
I'm not trying to be a jerk here,I'm just pointing out the absurd nature of your post compared to the products you think are best
Most harley guys are duped into thinking because the oil has a harley badge it's the best. It's because they follow blindly without actually researching anything. It's common in the harley world.
It's almost like some guys see that badge and their sensibilities turn off."
You did not even direct your response to me as if I was not even worthy of direct contact. Then you proceed to express your contempt of most HD riders contending that they are easily duped, blindly follow the bar and shield, and have no sensibilities. Knowledge is a wonderful thing. However, it makes very little difference how much knowledge you have on a subject if you do not know how to transmit that knowledge to others. Talking down to someone who puts up a post you do not agree with, particularly a relatively new guy,is not the way to successfully impart your knowledge. I want to thank you for the warm welcome and let you know that I have no interest whatsoever in anything you have to say.
Dave
And it's applies here how.
My contempt for poseur wallet bikers with their dew rags and their 2000 mile a year rides have nothing to do with oil,or this thread.
If you've got an issue with my opinion by all means take it up with me.
I see chumps every day trying to buy an image,like they're bad or something.
Good for a laugh anyway.
As was your comment.
See I'm not trying to buy anything. I am what I am. See I don't have to pretend.
Merry Christmas.
Maybe you'll get that new harley jacket you always wanted.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
My contempt for poseur wallet bikers with their dew rags and their 2000 mile a year rides have nothing to do with oil,or this thread.
If you've got an issue with my opinion by all means take it up with me.
I see chumps every day trying to buy an image,like they're bad or something.
Good for a laugh anyway.
As was your comment.
See I'm not trying to buy anything. I am what I am. See I don't have to pretend.
Merry Christmas.
Maybe you'll get that new harley jacket you always wanted.
Izzat you, Ricky????
My contempt for poseur wallet bikers with their dew rags and their 2000 mile a year rides have nothing to do with oil,or this thread.
If you've got an issue with my opinion by all means take it up with me.
I see chumps every day trying to buy an image,like they're bad or something.
Good for a laugh anyway.
As was your comment.
See I'm not trying to buy anything. I am what I am. See I don't have to pretend.
Merry Christmas.
Maybe you'll get that new harley jacket you always wanted.
Izzat you, Ricky????
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Skid
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Better fuel economy may be the least important advantage of thinner oils. The main advantages are less engine wear particularly on start-up and
OK, CATERHAM ...again...please show, in industry standard testing, SAE papers, ASTM papers, or any other credible source, which isn't fluff from manufacturers, where thinner oils provide less start-up wear than any other grade rated for the temperature.
Can start with Sequence IV if you like, which is the industry standard for warm up wear.
I don't think thick/thin matters wrt startup wear unless you're at such an extreme that you can't pump the thick stuff at all or it won't drain back to the pain.
Some points (I'm talking plain bearings here, not cams, rings, etc):
1. You start out in boundary lubrication whether thick or thin.
2. You transition to hydrodynamic lubrication when the engine starts rotating.
3. A thicker oil should form a film faster (thicker film at a lower rpm), but the engine might spin faster with a thinner oil, so I think it's a wash.
4. Don't bother talking about thinner oil getting to the parts faster because there is residual oil between the journals and the bearings to form the films. It's not like your engine disassembles itself every time it shuts down and cleans off all the oil. Your bearings are never dry, and the residual oil will not burn off that fast.
Anyway, I think thick or thin for startup wear is a wash.
Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Wow.
A bit harsh I think.
Caterham has his position,which I for one am glad because he provides an alternative point of view.
Yin needs yang
Alpha requires omega
I may not always agree with everyone here's posts however I am glad that they post. I like that there's is open discussion on these topics.
Without caterham we'd all be thicker is better,and how much fun would that be.
A bit harsh you think? Now that IS hilarious. Let me refresh your memory of a post you made in response to one of mine:
"Absolute gold here.
Wants the best regardless of cost but uses syn 3 in his harley.
HILLARIOUS to say the least.
Then comments on how great it is in all 3 holes.
Even better than HILLARIOUS.
The tranny has gears,thus a gear oil is the right fluid and is BEST in that application.
The primary needs a fluid to keep the clutches cool,to wash away debris and still maintain friction. Any hdeo,like Rotella costs way less and dies exactly what's required.
And syn 3 it citgo junk. The additive package is weak at best.
But you want the best,regardless of cost.
Redline shockproof is the best for the tranny. Second best is any other gear oil.
The primary would be fine with rotella. I use it in my significantly modified harley and I can't get the stock clutch to slip.
And the engine is fine with any hdeo 15w-40,but if it's real hot thicker is smart.
I'm not trying to be a jerk here,I'm just pointing out the absurd nature of your post compared to the products you think are best
Most harley guys are duped into thinking because the oil has a harley badge it's the best. It's because they follow blindly without actually researching anything. It's common in the harley world.
It's almost like some guys see that badge and their sensibilities turn off."
You did not even direct your response to me as if I was not even worthy of direct contact. Then you proceed to express your contempt of most HD riders contending that they are easily duped, blindly follow the bar and shield, and have no sensibilities. Knowledge is a wonderful thing. However, it makes very little difference how much knowledge you have on a subject if you do not know how to transmit that knowledge to others. Talking down to someone who puts up a post you do not agree with, particularly a relatively new guy,is not the way to successfully impart your knowledge. I want to thank you for the warm welcome and let you know that I have no interest whatsoever in anything you have to say.
Dave
And it's applies here how.
My contempt for poseur wallet bikers with their dew rags and their 2000 mile a year rides have nothing to do with oil,or this thread.
If you've got an issue with my opinion by all means take it up with me.
I see chumps every day trying to buy an image,like they're bad or something.
Good for a laugh anyway.
As was your comment.
See I'm not trying to buy anything. I am what I am. See I don't have to pretend.
Merry Christmas.
Maybe you'll get that new harley jacket you always wanted.
Well the original thread was about oil and my post was about Syn3. You turned it into a rant about poseur bikers and how stupid they are. Unlike other harley guys you have such contempt for, I spent many years in the business selling the bikes after retiring from the military. I have tried just about everything available in the many HD bikes I have owned. I also spent a lot of time talking with highly experienced HD techs that know a lot more about the bikes than you ever will. I can tell you that Syn 3 (20W-50) performs well in all late model HD bikes based on years of personal experience and the experience on many other HD customers.
I suspect you fancy yourself to be a “real” hard core biker thus your disdain for anyone who does not fit your mold. In my years at the dealership, I rarely saw any “bad” bikers like you. Most were hard working ordinary guys and gals that loved the bikes, riding, and camaraderie with others like them (not with real “bad” guys like you). Our dealership was near a Marine base and a large percentage of our customers were Marines. None of my brothers in arms were pretending to be anything other than what they were.
One more thought. If it wasn’t for all the “poseurs” out there, the Motor Company would have gone out of business years ago. The ranks of the “bad” guys like you are getting pretty thin.
Thanks for the thought but I have plenty of jackets including some Harley jackets (they were part of the dealership uniform).
Since you are such a “bad” guy, here’s hoping you have a Merry Bad Christmas. As for me, the weather down here in FL is beautiful. I think I will take the Dyna out for a spin. Trying hard to get past that 2,000 mile mark.
Originally Posted By: Skid
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Better fuel economy may be the least important advantage of thinner oils. The main advantages are less engine wear particularly on start-up and
OK, CATERHAM ...again...please show, in industry standard testing, SAE papers, ASTM papers, or any other credible source, which isn't fluff from manufacturers, where thinner oils provide less start-up wear than any other grade rated for the temperature.
Can start with Sequence IV if you like, which is the industry standard for warm up wear.
I don't think thick/thin matters wrt startup wear unless you're at such an extreme that you can't pump the thick stuff at all or it won't drain back to the pain.
Some points (I'm talking plain bearings here, not cams, rings, etc):
1. You start out in boundary lubrication whether thick or thin.
2. You transition to hydrodynamic lubrication when the engine starts rotating.
3. A thicker oil should form a film faster (thicker film at a lower rpm), but the engine might spin faster with a thinner oil, so I think it's a wash.
4. Don't bother talking about thinner oil getting to the parts faster because there is residual oil between the journals and the bearings to form the films. It's not like your engine disassembles itself every time it shuts down and cleans off all the oil. Your bearings are never dry, and the residual oil will not burn off that fast.
Anyway, I think thick or thin for startup wear is a wash.
Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Wow.
A bit harsh I think.
Caterham has his position,which I for one am glad because he provides an alternative point of view.
Yin needs yang
Alpha requires omega
I may not always agree with everyone here's posts however I am glad that they post. I like that there's is open discussion on these topics.
Without caterham we'd all be thicker is better,and how much fun would that be.
A bit harsh you think? Now that IS hilarious. Let me refresh your memory of a post you made in response to one of mine:
"Absolute gold here.
Wants the best regardless of cost but uses syn 3 in his harley.
HILLARIOUS to say the least.
Then comments on how great it is in all 3 holes.
Even better than HILLARIOUS.
The tranny has gears,thus a gear oil is the right fluid and is BEST in that application.
The primary needs a fluid to keep the clutches cool,to wash away debris and still maintain friction. Any hdeo,like Rotella costs way less and dies exactly what's required.
And syn 3 it citgo junk. The additive package is weak at best.
But you want the best,regardless of cost.
Redline shockproof is the best for the tranny. Second best is any other gear oil.
The primary would be fine with rotella. I use it in my significantly modified harley and I can't get the stock clutch to slip.
And the engine is fine with any hdeo 15w-40,but if it's real hot thicker is smart.
I'm not trying to be a jerk here,I'm just pointing out the absurd nature of your post compared to the products you think are best
Most harley guys are duped into thinking because the oil has a harley badge it's the best. It's because they follow blindly without actually researching anything. It's common in the harley world.
It's almost like some guys see that badge and their sensibilities turn off."
You did not even direct your response to me as if I was not even worthy of direct contact. Then you proceed to express your contempt of most HD riders contending that they are easily duped, blindly follow the bar and shield, and have no sensibilities. Knowledge is a wonderful thing. However, it makes very little difference how much knowledge you have on a subject if you do not know how to transmit that knowledge to others. Talking down to someone who puts up a post you do not agree with, particularly a relatively new guy,is not the way to successfully impart your knowledge. I want to thank you for the warm welcome and let you know that I have no interest whatsoever in anything you have to say.
Dave
And it's applies here how.
My contempt for poseur wallet bikers with their dew rags and their 2000 mile a year rides have nothing to do with oil,or this thread.
If you've got an issue with my opinion by all means take it up with me.
I see chumps every day trying to buy an image,like they're bad or something.
Good for a laugh anyway.
As was your comment.
See I'm not trying to buy anything. I am what I am. See I don't have to pretend.
Merry Christmas.
Maybe you'll get that new harley jacket you always wanted.
Well the original thread was about oil and my post was about Syn3. You turned it into a rant about poseur bikers and how stupid they are. Unlike other harley guys you have such contempt for, I spent many years in the business selling the bikes after retiring from the military. I have tried just about everything available in the many HD bikes I have owned. I also spent a lot of time talking with highly experienced HD techs that know a lot more about the bikes than you ever will. I can tell you that Syn 3 (20W-50) performs well in all late model HD bikes based on years of personal experience and the experience on many other HD customers.
I suspect you fancy yourself to be a “real” hard core biker thus your disdain for anyone who does not fit your mold. In my years at the dealership, I rarely saw any “bad” bikers like you. Most were hard working ordinary guys and gals that loved the bikes, riding, and camaraderie with others like them (not with real “bad” guys like you). Our dealership was near a Marine base and a large percentage of our customers were Marines. None of my brothers in arms were pretending to be anything other than what they were.
One more thought. If it wasn’t for all the “poseurs” out there, the Motor Company would have gone out of business years ago. The ranks of the “bad” guys like you are getting pretty thin.
Thanks for the thought but I have plenty of jackets including some Harley jackets (they were part of the dealership uniform).
Since you are such a “bad” guy, here’s hoping you have a Merry Bad Christmas. As for me, the weather down here in FL is beautiful. I think I will take the Dyna out for a spin. Trying hard to get past that 2,000 mile mark.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Clevy
...because he provides an alternative point of view.
Yin needs yang
Alpha requires omega
I may not always agree with everyone here's posts however I am glad that they post. I like that there's is open discussion on these topics.
Absolutely true. Point needs counter point.
It's called "balance". And this place in particular gets a bit out of whack sometimes.
One of the silliest things IMO is being on a public board and expecting everyone to agree with your opinions...
...because he provides an alternative point of view.
Yin needs yang
Alpha requires omega
I may not always agree with everyone here's posts however I am glad that they post. I like that there's is open discussion on these topics.
Absolutely true. Point needs counter point.
It's called "balance". And this place in particular gets a bit out of whack sometimes.
One of the silliest things IMO is being on a public board and expecting everyone to agree with your opinions...
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Clevy
...because he provides an alternative point of view.
Yin needs yang
Alpha requires omega
I may not always agree with everyone here's posts however I am glad that they post. I like that there's is open discussion on these topics.
Absolutely true. Point needs counter point.
It's called "balance". And this place in particular gets a bit out of whack sometimes.
One of the silliest things IMO is being on a public board and expecting everyone to agree with your opinions...
You are describing a difference of opinion. Thats a completely different situation than CONMAN spreading information that is completely wrong, then arguing with people who actually know what they are talking about when they correct his misinformation.
There is no room for that when factual information is being discussed. If CONMAN wanted to discuss his favorite Italian dish, then unfounded opinion would be just fine.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
...because he provides an alternative point of view.
Yin needs yang
Alpha requires omega
I may not always agree with everyone here's posts however I am glad that they post. I like that there's is open discussion on these topics.
Absolutely true. Point needs counter point.
It's called "balance". And this place in particular gets a bit out of whack sometimes.
One of the silliest things IMO is being on a public board and expecting everyone to agree with your opinions...
You are describing a difference of opinion. Thats a completely different situation than CONMAN spreading information that is completely wrong, then arguing with people who actually know what they are talking about when they correct his misinformation.
There is no room for that when factual information is being discussed. If CONMAN wanted to discuss his favorite Italian dish, then unfounded opinion would be just fine.
Pete, the whole point was there IS room for different perspectives. We have many members here who really do not contribute a whole lot. But they are still allowed to post.
M1 haters vs. RP haters, etc. This is how public discourse works. It's not elegant or refined. And getting yourself all worked up over it is not helping anyone or adding anything to the discussion.
No one has the right to deny them, even if their post is considered incorrect. You simply post your points and then everyone gets to consider the entire argument for themselves...
M1 haters vs. RP haters, etc. This is how public discourse works. It's not elegant or refined. And getting yourself all worked up over it is not helping anyone or adding anything to the discussion.
No one has the right to deny them, even if their post is considered incorrect. You simply post your points and then everyone gets to consider the entire argument for themselves...
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Pete, the whole point was there IS room for different perspectives. We have many members here who really do not contribute a whole lot. But they are still allowed to post.
M1 haters vs. RP haters, etc. This is how public discourse works. It's not elegant or refined. And getting yourself all worked up over it is not helping anyone or adding anything to the discussion.
No one has the right to deny them, even if their post is considered incorrect. You simply post your points and then everyone gets to consider the entire argument for themselves...
What you're referring to (M1 vs. RP) IS a matter of opinion and certainly open to debate.
The stuff CONMAN holds forth on as if he were an expert are, by and large, scientific matters in the field of tribology. Simply throwing out what sounds good in your head as if it were fact in a scientific discussion is unacceptable, and is exactly why there is so much misinformation on this site.
Besides, don't I get to "post my points and then everyone gets to consider the entire argument for themselves?"
Pete, the whole point was there IS room for different perspectives. We have many members here who really do not contribute a whole lot. But they are still allowed to post.
M1 haters vs. RP haters, etc. This is how public discourse works. It's not elegant or refined. And getting yourself all worked up over it is not helping anyone or adding anything to the discussion.
No one has the right to deny them, even if their post is considered incorrect. You simply post your points and then everyone gets to consider the entire argument for themselves...
What you're referring to (M1 vs. RP) IS a matter of opinion and certainly open to debate.
The stuff CONMAN holds forth on as if he were an expert are, by and large, scientific matters in the field of tribology. Simply throwing out what sounds good in your head as if it were fact in a scientific discussion is unacceptable, and is exactly why there is so much misinformation on this site.
Besides, don't I get to "post my points and then everyone gets to consider the entire argument for themselves?"
Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
Besides, don't I get to "post my points and then everyone gets to consider the entire argument for themselves?"
Absolutely. No one should be censored whether I/you like their contributions or not.
Precisely my point!
Besides, don't I get to "post my points and then everyone gets to consider the entire argument for themselves?"
Absolutely. No one should be censored whether I/you like their contributions or not.
Precisely my point!
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Skid
I think the auto engineers have spoken.
Yes the auto engineers have spoken but I guess you don't accept what the engineers from Toyota, Honda etc have to say.
Okay, and what do these same engineers have to say about grades for markets outside of North America?
Perhaps the long sea voyage results in the need for a thicker grade in Honda and Toyota products sold in some markets?
Originally Posted By: Skid
I think the auto engineers have spoken.
Yes the auto engineers have spoken but I guess you don't accept what the engineers from Toyota, Honda etc have to say.
Okay, and what do these same engineers have to say about grades for markets outside of North America?
Perhaps the long sea voyage results in the need for a thicker grade in Honda and Toyota products sold in some markets?
- Status
