ACEA A3/B4 vs ACEA C3

[volodymyr]

il_signore97,

Originally Posted By: il_signore97


So I believe C3 oils are very popular in Europe simply because they can be used in mostly all vehicles, whereas A3/B4 oils are limited to gasoline powered vehicles only (or older diesels without any DPF, EGR, or catalysts).



Yes, this sounds like a reasonable explanation. I will probably stay with A3/B4 even though we are supposed to have a good fuel quality here.

The OD used A3/B4 ELF oils in my Nissan with OCI 15k km, even though in owner manual Nissan recommends OCI with 30k km and either of A3/B4, A5, A1 C2 or C3 oils.

 

[m37charlie]

Originally Posted By: il_signore97


So I believe C3 oils are very popular in Europe simply because they can be used in mostly all vehicles, whereas A3/B4 oils are limited to gasoline powered vehicles only (or older diesels without any DPF, EGR, or catalysts).


If a diesel vehicle has EGR but NOT DPF/SCR, I think a A3/B4 oil SHOULD be used. EGR is well known to increase degradation of oil in general, TBN in particular. A3/B4 oils have more alkalinity than C3 oils. In at least the TBN department, C3 oils are compromises to protect the DPF/SCR parts.

Charlie

 

[il_signore97]

Originally Posted By: m37charlie

If a diesel vehicle has EGR but NOT DPF/SCR, I think a A3/B4 oil SHOULD be used. EGR is well known to increase degradation of oil in general, TBN in particular. A3/B4 oils have more alkalinity than C3 oils. In at least the TBN department, C3 oils are compromises to protect the DPF/SCR parts.

Charlie


Yes, thanks for correcting that for me! EGR was not the reason for implementing C3 oils, only DPF & SCR.

 

[alex1212]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr

I can also see that Castrol is not selling in Europe 5W-30 viscosity (which is quite popular) with ACEA A3/B4 only. Instead they sell Castrol EDGE FST 5W-30 ACEA C3 here.

Does it mean that Castrol is moving away from A3/B4 towards C3? Is there any criteria why A3/B4 may be better than C3?




I think you will find that in Europe, due to the immense popularity of diesel powered passenger vehicles, C3 oils will obviously be some of the most popular offerings on store shelves. This is because modern diesel powered vehicles absolutely require C3 oils in order to protect their emissions equipment such as particulate filters and catalysts. That is not to say that C3 oils protect the engine better, but they enable emissions equipment to operate correctly in the long run.

As for gasoline engines, as long as the gasoline is ultra low sulphur, then you won't have an issue using C3 oils, although it is not necessarily required or any better than A3/B4 oils in those applications (with the exception of maybe direct injected gasoline engines due to valve deposit formation).

So I believe C3 oils are very popular in Europe simply because they can be used in mostly all vehicles, whereas A3/B4 oils are limited to gasoline powered vehicles only (or older diesels without any DPF, EGR, or catalysts).

i always wondered why we put in our gasoline vehicles ,oils that are meant for diesel engines. your post fully answers my question...
my bmw on the manual says to use BMWLL01 A3/B4 oils.but the official direction - norm from the bmw hellas and the dealership is to use BMWLL04 oils which are ACEA C3 oils. when i asked why they change the direction while on my manual says other ,they simply answered that this is the decision from bmw.
maybe they don't know or maybe they do know what my canadian friend says with the bold and they want to hide that info.because we had a lot of problems with valve deposit . i am not confided that the LL01 oils were the problem since a lot of bmw drivers that i know still use this norm. i don't know for this engine if the oil selection norm is responsible only for valve deposits.other factors maybe contribute to that problem.
the fact is that in europe BMWLL01 A3/B4 are becoming less and less as years go by. only 1 or 2 perhaps from its company. same thing with 5-40 weight. 5-30 oils with C3 norm is ruling europe.

so i am asking direclty...i might wanted to try an A3/B4 oil but my car has that stupid direct injection engine system. so should i use better C3 LL04 oils? will it have less valve deposit with these C3 oils?

 

[Jetronic]

No it won't be less, the ingredients in oils that increase ash are not very volatile and won't get through the PCV. Water, fuel and the lightest base oils are what you find in the PCV an reaches the intake.

If your engine consumes oil it's a different story.

 

[Brons2]

So in the USA, what C3 oils are available?

Pennzoil Euro L 5w30 - shelf stocked at Walmart
Mobil 1 ESP various weights

Anything else?

 

[sohccammer427]

So in the USA, what C3 oils are available?

Pennzoil Euro L 5w30 - shelf stocked at Walmart
Mobil 1 ESP various weights

Anything else?

Tons if you include the internet marketplace (Amazon, walmart.com, ECS Tuning, etc)

As a side note I find it interesting that for the C7 Corvettes with LT1 & LT4 GASOLINE engines, the factory fill and and recommended oil was Dexos2 M1 0w-40 ESP (Emissions Systems Protection), a .8% sulfated ash engine oil. Not sure if it was classified as a C3, but it certainly was a low/mid SAPS emissions protection formula for use in a very high performance gas engine. Square that.

 

[Jetronic]

I do believe Dexos 2 starts as an ACEA C3 with some added requirements

 

[alex1212]

No it won't be less, the ingredients in oils that increase ash are not very volatile and won't get through the PCV. Water, fuel and the lightest base oils are what you find in the PCV an reaches the intake.

If your engine consumes oil it's a different story.

no, my engine doesn't consume oil ..so what are saying is that when it comes to valve deposit its not the oils that are primarly responsible.

 

[Jetronic]

I don't believe so. Reports can be found where ash content makes no difference for deposits, and some where it does. In test engines of course.

The ash isn't black in colour but greyish/white. If there's black carbon deposits there it's from fuel or from base oil and possibly viscosity modifiers.

According to Mazda, if the valves are hot enough they burn clean, again pointing to carbon residue.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I don't believe so. Reports can be found where ash content makes no difference for deposits, and some where it does. In test engines of course.

The ash isn't black in colour but greyish/white. If there's black carbon deposits there it's from fuel or from base oil and possibly viscosity modifiers.

According to Mazda, if the valves are hot enough they burn clean, again pointing to carbon residue.

Back in the mid-2000's Lubrizol gave a presentation which showed that the new reduced-ash additives resulted in less buildup over the prevailing additive package. This of course was at the time DPF, TWC (three way catalyst), ULSD/ULSG were introduced to the European market.

As for the Mazda comment. IIRC Youtuber Engineering Explained busted that myth. The valves simply never get hot enough to burn off the buildup. That was news to me but ya know..Science.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

So in the USA, what C3 oils are available?

Pennzoil Euro L 5w30 - shelf stocked at Walmart
Mobil 1 ESP various weights

Anything else?

IIRC Valvoline/QS have a product. Then of course any Porsche/VW/Benz/BMW dealership will sell their C3 flavor.