Q: For people that go multiple OCI on oil filters
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My oil filter is a pita to get too, so I run a fram ultra or napa platinum for 2-3 ocis depending on mileage and the vehicle. It's cost effective, quicker and easier. The residual oil in the filter is not enough to make a different in an oci.
I run a filter to its rated life span. If that takes two oil changes that's OK.
What filter are y'all running for multiple oil changes? Fram Ultra?
Maybe you should ask the question Why not? The only reason that you change the filter every OCI is because the industry, both filter and the car manufacturers have regularly required it. But had they instead from the beginning set the change inteval differnt you would just consider that normal. In other words what we think is normal and defend is just what we are used to. Engineering wise if a filter is designed for X miles or X months then that should be the change interval. Changing every OCI is just an arbitrary choice at that point unless the OCI matches the filter design life.
Originally Posted By: bama7x57
What filter are y'all running for multiple oil changes? Fram Ultra?
Fram Ultra is the best buy (for filters rated to 15k miles). Like another poster mentioned, you can get them from Advance Auto for around $7 using an online discount code. You will have a top tier oil filter for around $3.50 an oil change.
Retail Me Not is a good site to use to get the discount codes.
What filter are y'all running for multiple oil changes? Fram Ultra?
Fram Ultra is the best buy (for filters rated to 15k miles). Like another poster mentioned, you can get them from Advance Auto for around $7 using an online discount code. You will have a top tier oil filter for around $3.50 an oil change.
Retail Me Not is a good site to use to get the discount codes.
I run an OEM filter in my Hondas for 2 OCIs largely because the owner's manual says to, and secondly to save effort, and thirdly, to reduce waste. Not necessarily landfill waste, but waste in my garage between trips to the auto parts store to drop off oil.
My last analysis of M1 0W20 AFE came back with a 3.8 TBN, so I'm considering going two OLMs and changing both the oil and filter each time.
I've never really considered the potential additional filtration as a key benefit to me. I understand that the Honda filters aren't the best at filtering to begin with, and I presume Honda knows more about their engines and deems it adequate.
My last analysis of M1 0W20 AFE came back with a 3.8 TBN, so I'm considering going two OLMs and changing both the oil and filter each time.
I've never really considered the potential additional filtration as a key benefit to me. I understand that the Honda filters aren't the best at filtering to begin with, and I presume Honda knows more about their engines and deems it adequate.
I think most cars would be fine with holes in the filter media. I don't think there is (under normal conditions) anything in the oil that needs to be filtered. The filters are there as a CYA just in case something goes wrong or something gets in there.
I have yet to see anything in the filters other than brown oil. My current vehicles use cartridge filters so I can see the media every time i do a change.
I have yet to see anything in the filters other than brown oil. My current vehicles use cartridge filters so I can see the media every time i do a change.
I went several oil changes on filters on 2 different cars for different reasons. On our 2008 Mini Cooper, to change the filter was a total pain in the [censored] which created a mess every time you did it and we were driving less than 5k per year and the filter was tiny. I went 3 years because it had an oil capacity of 4.5 quarts and I was using Redline motor oil which I changed out every 18 months. On our 2003 Acura MDX, I used Amsoil filters but didn't always use Amsoil. When I was using Motorcraft oil, I went 3 changes because it took that long to get to 15k which was the life of the filter and I saw no reason to throw away a high quality Amsoil filter way before it was due. If I had been using cheaper filters, I would have changed them every time--I thought that the Amsoil filter would do a better job than the cheaper filters.
Originally Posted By: linksep
Are you just so cheap you're trying to save $10-$20 per year, or are you operating under the premise that the big holes in the media will be plugged resulting in a better level of filtration for small particles?
I guess the other way to ask the question is, if you're unnecessarily changing the filter at every oil change, are you just so wasteful that you'll throw away parts that still have life left in them?
There are too many variables to say that you can, under all circumstances, extend the use of your filter beyond one oil change. It depends on the filter used, the engine, its condition, etc.
And, too, an oil filter change interval is tied to the oil change for the sake of convenience only. Just for the sake of simple numbers, there's nothing that says you can't run a "10,000 mile oil" with a "5,000 mile filter", and replace the filter in the middle of an oil change interval. Likewise, there's nothing that says you can't run a "5,000 mile oil" with a "10,000 mile filter" and change the oil in the middle of a filter change interval.
We've become conditioned to changing the oil and the filter at the same time, and there's really little reason to do that other than convenience. That's why the owner's manuals are written as they are. If you look at commercial or industrial equipment, there are many circumstances where lubricants and filters are changed on different schedules.
Are you just so cheap you're trying to save $10-$20 per year, or are you operating under the premise that the big holes in the media will be plugged resulting in a better level of filtration for small particles?
I guess the other way to ask the question is, if you're unnecessarily changing the filter at every oil change, are you just so wasteful that you'll throw away parts that still have life left in them?
There are too many variables to say that you can, under all circumstances, extend the use of your filter beyond one oil change. It depends on the filter used, the engine, its condition, etc.
And, too, an oil filter change interval is tied to the oil change for the sake of convenience only. Just for the sake of simple numbers, there's nothing that says you can't run a "10,000 mile oil" with a "5,000 mile filter", and replace the filter in the middle of an oil change interval. Likewise, there's nothing that says you can't run a "5,000 mile oil" with a "10,000 mile filter" and change the oil in the middle of a filter change interval.
We've become conditioned to changing the oil and the filter at the same time, and there's really little reason to do that other than convenience. That's why the owner's manuals are written as they are. If you look at commercial or industrial equipment, there are many circumstances where lubricants and filters are changed on different schedules.
Greater filter efficiency + cost savings = smarter maintenance
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
If you use a filter that is suited for 2 OCIs, then there are a few advantages:
1) Less cost
2) Less hassle, mess & time to do the oil change
3) Less waste and pollution
4) Makes BOF foam at the mouth ... LOL
2 OCI Example
Exactly! For me number 2 is the most important part, followed by number 3.
Personally since I'm not as young as I used to be - the idea of not needing to deal with changing a filter every time is rather appealing.
I've always changed the filter every oil change mostly because I've ALWAYS done it that way (even though a couple of my cars from two or three decades ago said to change the filter every other oil change). But it makes sense to me not to waste money or time by throwing away a partly used but still has a lot of life in it filter.
If you use a filter that is suited for 2 OCIs, then there are a few advantages:
1) Less cost
2) Less hassle, mess & time to do the oil change
3) Less waste and pollution
4) Makes BOF foam at the mouth ... LOL
2 OCI Example
Exactly! For me number 2 is the most important part, followed by number 3.
Personally since I'm not as young as I used to be - the idea of not needing to deal with changing a filter every time is rather appealing.
I've always changed the filter every oil change mostly because I've ALWAYS done it that way (even though a couple of my cars from two or three decades ago said to change the filter every other oil change). But it makes sense to me not to waste money or time by throwing away a partly used but still has a lot of life in it filter.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: linksep
Are you just so cheap you're trying to save $10-$20 per year, or are you operating under the premise that the big holes in the media will be plugged resulting in a better level of filtration for small particles?
I guess the other way to ask the question is, if you're unnecessarily changing the filter at every oil change, are you just so wasteful that you'll throw away parts that still have life left in them?
Touché! Yes, I guess I am so wasteful I throw away oil and filters that still have life left in them.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
And, too, an oil filter change interval is tied to the oil change for the sake of convenience only. Just for the sake of simple numbers, there's nothing that says you can't run a "10,000 mile oil" with a "5,000 mile filter", and replace the filter in the middle of an oil change interval. Likewise, there's nothing that says you can't run a "5,000 mile oil" with a "10,000 mile filter" and change the oil in the middle of a filter change interval.
We've become conditioned to changing the oil and the filter at the same time, and there's really little reason to do that other than convenience.
Question answered. I've never thought of it like that, probably because I've never owned a vehicle where changing the oil filter was a major PITA or made a huge mess (I'm lookin' at you 3rd generation Toyota 4Runner--my least favorite oil/filter change when I worked in a lube shop as a teenager).
Old habits are hard to break. I've always used "premium" oil and changed it too early. I figure as long as I already have the car lifted I might as well change the filter because it only takes a minute, I'm already dirty, and it only costs a few dollars (that convenience thing you were talking about).
I'm getting less wasteful. I will continue to use "premium" oils and "premium" filters, I will continue to change them both at the same time, and I will continue to change them too early. I am getting better about how much too early I change the oil though, in this car I was doing 5k OCI with synthetic, even though the OLM usually goes off around 7,800 and is calibrated for conventional. I'm trying to get on the 10k OCI bandwagon. Yes, I know I could probably go 15k OCI/FCI (with makeup oil added) but I'm just not going to go there.
I'm generally pretty frugal but I can't bring myself to do the bare minimum my owner's manual asks for. Just for fun (because I've never done the math before):
$18 for minimum specs oil and filter / 7,800 miles = $0.0023/mile
$35 for premium oil and filter / 5,000 miles = $0.007/mile (old me)
$35 for premium oil and filter / 10,000 miles = $0.0035/mile (new me)
$40 for premium oil and filter (+ 1qt makeup oil) / 15,000 miles = $0.0027/mile
It's interesting to learn that "old me" was spending 300% of the minimum on oil/filters, "new me" has cut that in half to 150% of the minimum (not factoring in rebates).
Originally Posted By: linksep
Are you just so cheap you're trying to save $10-$20 per year, or are you operating under the premise that the big holes in the media will be plugged resulting in a better level of filtration for small particles?
I guess the other way to ask the question is, if you're unnecessarily changing the filter at every oil change, are you just so wasteful that you'll throw away parts that still have life left in them?
Touché! Yes, I guess I am so wasteful I throw away oil and filters that still have life left in them.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
And, too, an oil filter change interval is tied to the oil change for the sake of convenience only. Just for the sake of simple numbers, there's nothing that says you can't run a "10,000 mile oil" with a "5,000 mile filter", and replace the filter in the middle of an oil change interval. Likewise, there's nothing that says you can't run a "5,000 mile oil" with a "10,000 mile filter" and change the oil in the middle of a filter change interval.
We've become conditioned to changing the oil and the filter at the same time, and there's really little reason to do that other than convenience.
Question answered. I've never thought of it like that, probably because I've never owned a vehicle where changing the oil filter was a major PITA or made a huge mess (I'm lookin' at you 3rd generation Toyota 4Runner--my least favorite oil/filter change when I worked in a lube shop as a teenager).
Old habits are hard to break. I've always used "premium" oil and changed it too early. I figure as long as I already have the car lifted I might as well change the filter because it only takes a minute, I'm already dirty, and it only costs a few dollars (that convenience thing you were talking about).
I'm getting less wasteful. I will continue to use "premium" oils and "premium" filters, I will continue to change them both at the same time, and I will continue to change them too early. I am getting better about how much too early I change the oil though, in this car I was doing 5k OCI with synthetic, even though the OLM usually goes off around 7,800 and is calibrated for conventional. I'm trying to get on the 10k OCI bandwagon. Yes, I know I could probably go 15k OCI/FCI (with makeup oil added) but I'm just not going to go there.
I'm generally pretty frugal but I can't bring myself to do the bare minimum my owner's manual asks for. Just for fun (because I've never done the math before):
$18 for minimum specs oil and filter / 7,800 miles = $0.0023/mile
$35 for premium oil and filter / 5,000 miles = $0.007/mile (old me)
$35 for premium oil and filter / 10,000 miles = $0.0035/mile (new me)
$40 for premium oil and filter (+ 1qt makeup oil) / 15,000 miles = $0.0027/mile
It's interesting to learn that "old me" was spending 300% of the minimum on oil/filters, "new me" has cut that in half to 150% of the minimum (not factoring in rebates).
On my wifes car I run syn oil with Fram Ultra filter and change both at 12-15k miles
On my truck I only put about 6k a year and I change oil and filter once a year
After looking at the same filter for a year I am ready for a new one and they are easy to get to on my 302
On my truck I only put about 6k a year and I change oil and filter once a year
After looking at the same filter for a year I am ready for a new one and they are easy to get to on my 302
Having an oil filter much larger than OEM will make me more likely to run another OCI, especially if it is an oversize premium filter. If the vehicle already specifies 2 OCI's per filter, then definitely.
Greetings:
I run multiple oil changes on the same filter. I don't do it for a cost saving measure. I don't really care how much a filter or a quart of oil costs. My motivation is filter efficiency.
I just received the UOA report with particle count for my Toyota Tacoma, with a 2.4L motor.
The numbers below represent 6,966, 14,419, and 21,926 miles on the filter.
>4micron: 113507, 4500, 435
>6micron: 13710, 2451, 237
>14micron: 2, 417, 40
It is abundantly clear that the filter is becoming dramatically more efficient. The difference in the >4micron size particles from the first to second oil change is a factor of 25. The difference between the second and third is a factor of 10.
I have reproduced similar numbers on a variety of vehicles. The filter is an Amsoil Ea15k51. The oil is Amsoil Signature 0w-30. I plan on leaving the filter in service for two more runs. It will have accumulated approximately 36k miles. If I see a jump in the particle count that will be an indication the filter is in the bypass mode and I will change it.
Dave
I run multiple oil changes on the same filter. I don't do it for a cost saving measure. I don't really care how much a filter or a quart of oil costs. My motivation is filter efficiency.
I just received the UOA report with particle count for my Toyota Tacoma, with a 2.4L motor.
The numbers below represent 6,966, 14,419, and 21,926 miles on the filter.
>4micron: 113507, 4500, 435
>6micron: 13710, 2451, 237
>14micron: 2, 417, 40
It is abundantly clear that the filter is becoming dramatically more efficient. The difference in the >4micron size particles from the first to second oil change is a factor of 25. The difference between the second and third is a factor of 10.
I have reproduced similar numbers on a variety of vehicles. The filter is an Amsoil Ea15k51. The oil is Amsoil Signature 0w-30. I plan on leaving the filter in service for two more runs. It will have accumulated approximately 36k miles. If I see a jump in the particle count that will be an indication the filter is in the bypass mode and I will change it.
Dave
Last edited:
Honda = Engine !
Honda designs/engineers/produces many different engines for many different applications for many years, they know as much or more about engine as any other company in the world. Their engines are known to be very reliable with their maintenance schedule.
If they recommend changing oil filter only on second oil change for some applications, do you think they didn't do their homework first before recommend it ? Why Accord, Civic ... have FCI at second oil change but S2000 FCI is at every oil change ? They did their homework and found that it's the best for those engines.
When did I start changing low to mid-range oil filter once a year up to 15-20k miles in my LS400 ? More than 15 years ago ! What happened to my LS400 engine ? It's running without a hitch, the engine has more than 370k miles with original valve cover gasket.
Filter companies love drivers who change high end oil filter in 5-6k miles, the more you change the expensive oil filter the better their bottom line will show at the end of the month.
Do you know that Fram recommends air filter changed at 12k/12mo ? Which is totally wrong for most engines that not exposed to very dirty environment, but it's good for them because they will sell a lot more air filters.
Honda designs/engineers/produces many different engines for many different applications for many years, they know as much or more about engine as any other company in the world. Their engines are known to be very reliable with their maintenance schedule.
If they recommend changing oil filter only on second oil change for some applications, do you think they didn't do their homework first before recommend it ? Why Accord, Civic ... have FCI at second oil change but S2000 FCI is at every oil change ? They did their homework and found that it's the best for those engines.
When did I start changing low to mid-range oil filter once a year up to 15-20k miles in my LS400 ? More than 15 years ago ! What happened to my LS400 engine ? It's running without a hitch, the engine has more than 370k miles with original valve cover gasket.
Filter companies love drivers who change high end oil filter in 5-6k miles, the more you change the expensive oil filter the better their bottom line will show at the end of the month.
Do you know that Fram recommends air filter changed at 12k/12mo ? Which is totally wrong for most engines that not exposed to very dirty environment, but it's good for them because they will sell a lot more air filters.
Originally Posted By: DrDave
Greetings:
I run multiple oil changes on the same filter. I don't do it for a cost saving measure. I don't really care how much a filter or a quart of oil costs. My motivation is filter efficiency.
I just received the UOA report with particle count for my Toyota Tacoma, with a 2.4L motor.
The numbers below represent 6,966, 14,419, and 21,926 miles on the filter.
>4micron: 113507, 4500, 435
>6micron: 13710, 2451, 237
>14micron: 2, 417, 40
It is abundantly clear that the filter is becoming dramatically more efficient. The difference in the >4micron size particles from the first to second oil change is a factor of 25. The difference between the second and third is a factor of 10.
I have reproduced similar numbers on a variety of vehicles. The filter is an Amsoil Ea15k51. The oil is Amsoil Signature 0w-30. I plan on leaving the filter in service for two more runs. It will have accumulated approximately 36k miles. If I see a jump in the particle count that will be an indication the filter is in the bypass mode and I will change it.
Dave
Now this is wonderful data,and it's a slap in the face for those guys who call short intervals cheap insurance or something stupid like that.
It's evidence that changing the filter prior to its capacity actually allows more damaging particulate to run through the engine.
Add to that that brand new oil from the bottle is far from clean,and actually gets cleaner in a running engine stomps on the toe of the guys who think short intervals just for the sake of it is dumb,and actually contributes to more wear than less.
For example let's say we have a person who has a chev LS 5.3 engine whose running a 3000 mile interval just because. It's not driven in a severe manner nor in very dusty conditions.
Many of us own this same truck and there is a vast amount of data that proves using a common cheap synthetic,nothing special,can run 10000 miles and there is no sludge nor accelerated wear.
In the case of the 10000 mile interval sure the oil is black but there is almost nil for particulate circling around because the filter has become extremely efficient.
In 9000 miles that person has changed their oil 3 times. So 3 times he loses the efficiency the filter has acquired which means he has larger,more damaging particulate circling around,not to mention the anti-wear layer being stripped and re-applied 3 times which increases wear vs leaving it alone.
And let's add that he dumps serviceable oil just to add serviceable oil.
Not very bright right.
So sure this guy has a clean engine,which inevitably gas more wear due to the larger abrasive particles and the compromised anti-wear layer,and he's spent more money to achieve these results.
Do I think it's a huge deal. Not really. I'm sure the vehicle will rust in half before the engine dies but over the long term this guy has spent more money for absolutely no gain. In fact it's detrimental,and he spent more to get it.
And arguing with guys set in their ways is pointless they've convinced themselves it's better even if there is evidence to the contrary.
I've been running 2 and 3 intervals off a filter once I'm sure there aren't any engine deposits present. Let's consider in a clean engine exactly how much carbon agglomerates and is trapped by the media.
Now if operating conditions exist that necessitates a shorter interval to lessen wear then that to me means the environment is cobtributing pollutants and contaminants to the oil that are accelerating wear,and therefore us money well spent because it's increasing the engines longevity.
But to discard serviceable oil and filters just so you can add serviceable oil and filters is nonsensical,and when the big picture is considered is counterproductive.
But hey. Some folks can fool themselves into believing anything as history has proven,though it's sad that even when presented with data and evidence their brain turns to bricks.
Greetings:
I run multiple oil changes on the same filter. I don't do it for a cost saving measure. I don't really care how much a filter or a quart of oil costs. My motivation is filter efficiency.
I just received the UOA report with particle count for my Toyota Tacoma, with a 2.4L motor.
The numbers below represent 6,966, 14,419, and 21,926 miles on the filter.
>4micron: 113507, 4500, 435
>6micron: 13710, 2451, 237
>14micron: 2, 417, 40
It is abundantly clear that the filter is becoming dramatically more efficient. The difference in the >4micron size particles from the first to second oil change is a factor of 25. The difference between the second and third is a factor of 10.
I have reproduced similar numbers on a variety of vehicles. The filter is an Amsoil Ea15k51. The oil is Amsoil Signature 0w-30. I plan on leaving the filter in service for two more runs. It will have accumulated approximately 36k miles. If I see a jump in the particle count that will be an indication the filter is in the bypass mode and I will change it.
Dave
Now this is wonderful data,and it's a slap in the face for those guys who call short intervals cheap insurance or something stupid like that.
It's evidence that changing the filter prior to its capacity actually allows more damaging particulate to run through the engine.
Add to that that brand new oil from the bottle is far from clean,and actually gets cleaner in a running engine stomps on the toe of the guys who think short intervals just for the sake of it is dumb,and actually contributes to more wear than less.
For example let's say we have a person who has a chev LS 5.3 engine whose running a 3000 mile interval just because. It's not driven in a severe manner nor in very dusty conditions.
Many of us own this same truck and there is a vast amount of data that proves using a common cheap synthetic,nothing special,can run 10000 miles and there is no sludge nor accelerated wear.
In the case of the 10000 mile interval sure the oil is black but there is almost nil for particulate circling around because the filter has become extremely efficient.
In 9000 miles that person has changed their oil 3 times. So 3 times he loses the efficiency the filter has acquired which means he has larger,more damaging particulate circling around,not to mention the anti-wear layer being stripped and re-applied 3 times which increases wear vs leaving it alone.
And let's add that he dumps serviceable oil just to add serviceable oil.
Not very bright right.
So sure this guy has a clean engine,which inevitably gas more wear due to the larger abrasive particles and the compromised anti-wear layer,and he's spent more money to achieve these results.
Do I think it's a huge deal. Not really. I'm sure the vehicle will rust in half before the engine dies but over the long term this guy has spent more money for absolutely no gain. In fact it's detrimental,and he spent more to get it.
And arguing with guys set in their ways is pointless they've convinced themselves it's better even if there is evidence to the contrary.
I've been running 2 and 3 intervals off a filter once I'm sure there aren't any engine deposits present. Let's consider in a clean engine exactly how much carbon agglomerates and is trapped by the media.
Now if operating conditions exist that necessitates a shorter interval to lessen wear then that to me means the environment is cobtributing pollutants and contaminants to the oil that are accelerating wear,and therefore us money well spent because it's increasing the engines longevity.
But to discard serviceable oil and filters just so you can add serviceable oil and filters is nonsensical,and when the big picture is considered is counterproductive.
But hey. Some folks can fool themselves into believing anything as history has proven,though it's sad that even when presented with data and evidence their brain turns to bricks.
Interesting data, but efficiency has yet to prove it extends the longevity of a vehicle.
Example: 2 Toyotas.. One ran with an OEM filter its whole life vs. one with a Fram Ultra. If properly taken care of, they will make it to the junkyard at the same time with shiny clean engines assuming they don't see wrecks.
Example: 2 Toyotas.. One ran with an OEM filter its whole life vs. one with a Fram Ultra. If properly taken care of, they will make it to the junkyard at the same time with shiny clean engines assuming they don't see wrecks.
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