toyota 86 oil question

Status
Not open for further replies.
Yes, pressure relief, not by-pass. And thanks Overkill for that answer on filters.

When I mention "filter bypass" I'm not thinking the internal workings of the filter.

I'm referring more than likely to the pressure relief system that hot rod gear-heads
love to plug so all the oil is directed through the filter.

When I hear of oil bypassing the filter, I mean the oil flow is directed around it instead
of through it.

What am I missing here, and don't lump me in with .........

For the life of me, I can't get the reasoning behind running a light weight
engine oil for the sake of satisfying one line in the owners manual.

Pardon me if I'm crazy, but if I ruin an engine I'll fix it myself.
 
There's a school of thought on BITOG that the oil viscosity should be dropped until the oil pump is out of bypass/relief...

It's irrational, and displays a profound misundertanding of how bearings actually work, drawing sufficient oil from the galleries to make up for side leakage...thinner oils create more side leakage, and need more make-up...and provide lower backpressure as a result...turbines actually pull a suction on the bearings if the feed location is correctly positioned.

In no way can closure of the pump relief be inferred as providing "better" lubrication.

The extra 10psi or so on a positive displacement pump operating in relief saps power and heats oil, to about the impact of installing a low beam headlight in the sump and powering it from the alternator.
 
Originally Posted By: used_0il
Yes, pressure relief, not by-pass. And thanks Overkill for that answer on filters.

When I mention "filter bypass" I'm not thinking the internal workings of the filter.

I'm referring more than likely to the pressure relief system that hot rod gear-heads
love to plug so all the oil is directed through the filter.

When I hear of oil bypassing the filter, I mean the oil flow is directed around it instead
of through it.

What am I missing here, and don't lump me in with .........

For the life of me, I can't get the reasoning behind running a light weight
engine oil for the sake of satisfying one line in the owners manual.

Pardon me if I'm crazy, but if I ruin an engine I'll fix it myself.


The internal filter bypass is on filters fitted to engines that don't have an in-block bypass. Filters fitted to engines with an in-block bypass (GM engines) don't have an internal bypass.

Jerry-rigging those bypasses closed can result in failed filters because they will see full pressure on a cold start until the engine is enveloped with no way of bypassing or partly bypassing the media. It is an incredibly stupid idea.

Both the integral bypass and in-block bypass operate in the same manner, bypassing oil only when there is a pressure differential present. It is the misunderstanding of how the system works that leads people to do things like you've mentioned.

The other relief that Trav and I are discussing is the oil pressure relief on the oil pump that bypasses oil back into the pump (or back into the sump on some designs) and is used to regulate total oil pressure of the system.
 
Old MB Diesels run on the edge of or in pressure relief every time they run at RPM.
Its just a little bleed off, nothing more.

People forget how much fluid and how high the pressure capabilities of a positive displacement pump, a little bleed off isn't really an issue with multi grade oils.
10w60 is still pretty thin when you drain it hot out of the sump. I think the possibility of issues arising is more with heavy straight weights like 40, 50 and 70.
Some people still buy straight weight racing oils.

I keep small scale steam engines (some are still large with their 95+ psi boilers), they are constantly relieving a small amount of pressure in normal operation, if it didn't it could be a real problem not only for the engine but also for anyone nearby.

Overkill help me out with this..
Years ago when real synthetics were common the pour points were way down and in the case of some German stuff still are like -60 to -65f, they don't pour out of the bottle much different than a dino 10w30. at say 50f. Whats going on with this?

Tell you what is still sticking in my mind is this blowing engines because they are being raced "stone cold". It doesn't make sense to me.
AFAIK there is a warm up lap to heat the tires, brakes, get the fluids up to temp, etc.

It would not be only the engine oil not at operating temp but the tranny, diff and coolant that was cold. Personally i think its safe to call that myth busted.
 
If I had remembered I'd have mentioned this earlier, but I was invited by the Canadian Motorsports Heritage Foundation to take part in their Celebration of Speed track day back on Easter Monday, April 21st at Canadian Tire Motorsports Park (nee Mosport).
My role was as a driving instructor to the inexperienced who wanted to track their car and to provide hot laps in my Caterham to spectators that made a financial donation to CMHF.

Car dealer Wietzes Scion (wietzesscion.ca) was their with two track prepared FR-Ss. In chatting with them I asked what oil they were running and they said 5W-30. I asked why not the spec' TGMO 0W-20 and was told "because the engines have been modified."
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Car dealer Wietzes Scion (wietzesscion.ca) was their with two track prepared FR-Ss. In chatting with them I asked what oil they were running and they said 5W-30. I asked why not the spec' TGMO 0W-20 and was told "because the engines have been modified."

How modified? I thought this was just like a driver ed day not really racing.
It doesn't sound like they have much faith in the TGMO 0w20 even for a driver ed day. LOL
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Car dealer Wietzes Scion (wietzesscion.ca) was their with two track prepared FR-Ss. In chatting with them I asked what oil they were running and they said 5W-30. I asked why not the spec' TGMO 0W-20 and was told "because the engines have been modified."

How modified? I thought this was just like a driver ed day not really racing.
It doesn't sound like they have much faith in the TGMO 0w20 even for a driver ed day. LOL

Did I say the "Celebration of Speed" event was a "driver ed" day?
It wouldn't of been much of a celebration without some truly fast production cars and some outright race cars.
Besides I never said DE track events precluded modified cars or
driving as fast as your skill will allow. It just doesn't allow wheel to wheel racing with very strict overtaking rules.
And on track session are short; typically 20-25 minutes.

Then there are the popular Solo 1 time trials, which are actual racing but just against the clock. Track sessions are very short
comprising only four laps; one warm-up, two timed laps and a cool down lap. Good luck getting you oil up to temperature at those events. No one with half a brain runs heavy oil. 20 and 30 grade motor oils dominate with the knowledgeable racers.
 
Didn't perchance see another engine grenade due to 40 or 50 this time out to add the the collection of failed engines that you've personally witnessed ?

Nah, not 4:30... maybe a new atlas is in order.
 
Your "racing" credentials are worthless in this discussion. This is how you try to song and dance the documentation you were asked for.
I asked you for some/any proof of your statements and all you gin up is this Mario Andretti wannabe stuff.

Yeah okay, the "knowledgeable racers" are all running around with cold engines, tires and other fluids. Sell that tripe to someone who believes in the tooth fairy.
Its not working, you cant side track the topic with "i'm and expert" and "i'm a racer" nonsense any more.
People are asking for some proof not speed racer stories.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Your "racing" credentials are worthless in this discussion. This is how you try to song and dance the documentation you were asked for.
I asked you for some/any proof of your statements and all you gin up is this Mario Andretti wannabe stuff.

Yeah okay, the "knowledgeable racers" are all running around with cold engines, tires and other fluids. Sell that tripe to someone who believes in the tooth fairy.
Its not working, you cant side track the topic with "i'm and expert" and "i'm a racer" nonsense any more.
People are asking for some proof not speed racer stories.


I don't circut race. My thing is drag racing. Eveybody at the track either is running up to the line or is pulled up after a warm up in the pits. Most guys run their cars for 10 minutes plus before they are at the line.

Oil might not be 100C but these are not stone cold engines...I would hope track guys do this as well.
 
Last edited:
CATERHAM, I participated at least 20 track days in my life. Most of them on a Grobnik circuit, but I was also in Monza and my friends that went to Nurnburgring said rules are basically the same over there also.

More or less the rules are simple. To participate one needs to be at least 18 year old, you need helmet, and pay anywhere from 30 € an hour to 100-150 a day. Obviously you need a car also. If one wants it can rent a fully prepared race hatch directly on a track at additional cost. Cars DO NOT have to be road legal because road insurance DO NOT cover track driving of any sort except advanced driving school that is not track day event.

So yes, people do race on a real track days, both with chronometer and with similarly fast cars.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If I had remembered I'd have mentioned this earlier, but I was invited by the Canadian Motorsports Heritage Foundation to take part in their Celebration of Speed

Car dealer Wietzes Scion (wietzesscion.ca) was their with two track prepared FR-Ss. In chatting with them I asked what oil they were running and they said 5W-30. I asked why not the spec' TGMO 0W-20 and was told "because the engines have been modified."


In what way they were modified ?
A 2 litre naturally aspirated engine that puts out 200 hp is fairly modified from the factory so to speak. Without going full race prep. with race cams, modifying heads, intake and full race exhaust you want gain any power on this type of engine.
What they probably did 'to track prepared it' is that they put some free flow back box and air filter. Maybe some remap. That's it.
 
Last edited:
Finding the nannies cut in after 5 off 15 second dyno pulls would be a good reason to remap...and change to 5W30.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

And on track session are short; typically 20-25 minutes.

Then there are the popular Solo 1 time trials, which are actual racing but just against the clock. Track sessions are very short
comprising only four laps; one warm-up, two timed laps and a cool down lap. Good luck getting you oil up to temperature at those events. No one with half a brain runs heavy oil. 20 and 30 grade motor oils dominate with the knowledgeable racers.


I can tell you right now that I can get my oil temp up to 90C during the summer in less than 20 minutes. I'm sure this is the case for many other cars that are tracked. So while what you posit may be the case for your cars, it most certainly isn't for all of them.

A knowledgeable racer will run the oil that is best suited for his/her vehicle based on its requirements and behaviours. When I was drag racing my Mustang there were some very knowledgeable racers (guys with fast cars with a lot of money in them) that ran everything from 5w-30 right up to 20w-50. These were guys that tore their engines down every season and checked to see what worked and what didn't. Now of course drag racing isn't "tracking" in the same sense we are talking about. The runs are much shorter, foot to the floor, with pretty decent cool downs between runs. But that doesn't change the fact that verifying what worked in a particular engine/car combo was what was being performed here. There was no blanket oil grade nor brand choice that applied.

And an interesting observation: A stock-blocked 302 making 3x the stock power level with what amounts to probably 1,000+ 1/4 mile passes under its belt still sits in my buddy's garage with what must be close to 400,000Km on it now. The heads have been "fixed" a few times due to some tuning issues (welded aluminum), and the engine was torn into about 6 years back due to it ingesting 15L of coolant when it popped an intake gasket on one run. He's run M1 5w-50, M1 15w-50 and Castrol Syntec 5w-50 in it pretty much the entire time I've known him. That would be at least 13 years now.

1. That engine has never "blown up" despite being flogged while still relatively cold at the race track with 5w-50/15w-50 in it, hitting 6K every shift right up to 120+mph.
2. That engine, when it was torn down for the coolant ingestion, was spotless. The cylinders still had visible cross hatching and the bearings were immaculate.
3. You'd be amazed how hot things get (including the oil) with the engine on for a couple of minutes when 10 seconds of that time is spent with your foot to the floor and you've got a big old supercharger that shares the engine oil helping with that.

Which brings me to my last point: I've never seen somebody blow up an engine drag racing due to "too heavy" an oil. I've seen bad tunes pop head gaskets, I've seen somebody toss a rod, I've seen a flywheel come through the hood of a Camaro; I've seen some very dramatic mechanical failures due to a part that just couldn't take the stress but I've never seen anything ever traced back to the oil they were using being too heavy. And I would think that given drag racing doesn't give you any "warm up laps" (just idling in the pits while you check and verify and perhaps some idling in pit lane) to put any sort of heat into the oil and that guys are icing their intakes between runs, that if running cold, thick oil was going to cause a failure, we'd see it here
21.gif


About the only oil-related failure I can think of off the top of my head is with guys running the stock oil pump drive shaft on a 302 or 351 with an HV or HV/HP pump and a heavy oil. This has a tendency to licorice-stick the shaft or breaking it resulting in an immediate loss of oil pressure. Usually those guys catch it in time though. FRPP and ARP both make hardened replacement shafts that make it a null-issue, and those shafts are usually installed with the new pump, so the issue is not common. I've never seen it kill an engine. But I have heard of it happening the states back when I used to be a regular on the Corral.
 
20 min is two laps or the Nordschleife in a van. LOL
This guy talks about anything heavier than 0w20 like its gear oil. A properly warmed up engine like it would be for track use on 10w60 is still thinner than 0w20 cold.

Now the interesting question. I know for a fact that in my bike from cold start around 70f to over 80c on the oil temp gauge is 2 Km (1.2 mi) @ 3,000 rpm and 100c in 4 Km (2.5 mi), then i can let the bike rip.

If what some claim is true that thicker oils generate more heat could it be that this initial heating brings the oil up to optimal operating temp quicker while still providing thick film lubrication of the critical parts?

Mobil 1 ESP 0w20 Viscosity @ 40 ºC, cSt ASTM D445 44.9
Castrol Edge 10w60 Viscosity @ 100°C ASTM D445 22.7

It would seem he is still thicker in his cold driver ed car than me in a properly warmed up machine.
smile.gif

Could it be that the add pack in my warmed up engine is doing its job because its warm and his is doing very little?

His whole argument for running this thin oil is you can race it cold. That is honestly the largest load i have ever run into in my life without boots on.
Yes i know i sound a little uncivil but look, nothing PO me more than someone shoveling bovine excrement at me and trying to force me to eat it because i'm a no racing moron in their opinion.
 
Toyota will regret making 0w20 [censored] for recommended grade in track lowing UK and hot Australia. Hundred bottom ends failures later they will switch to something that make more sense in those markets.
 
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Toyota will regret making 0w20 [censored] for recommended grade in track lowing UK and hot Australia. Hundred bottom ends failures later they will switch to something that make more sense in those markets.

That's the same fear mongering that was prevalent 10+ years ago when Ford, Chrysler, Honda, Toyota etc started specifying 20 grade oil in NA and surprise surprise the engines are lasting just as long as they ever did if not longer.

This whole what's used in actual racing is one big red herring to the question at hand, which is tracking a stock unmodified car.
What doesn't appear to have sunk in with some is that no manufacturer today, particularly of a sports car would risk the potential avalanche of warranty claims by specifying an oil grade that was too light for any sort of extreme usage. Of course they know some cars will be tracked and of course they know that high oil temp's can occur under the right conditions.
All this second guessing of what grade a manufacturer spec's is entirely ignorance based.
As the Scion dealer I referenced stated, the reason they're running the somewhat heavier 5W-30 grade was because the engine has been "modified". That modification undoubtedly included a remapped ECU with the safety nannies if not eliminated entirely, at least raised the triggering bar.

As I've already mentioned previously it's exactly the same situation as with Ford specifying the 5W-20 syn blend for the 435 hp Mustang GT. Ford is on record stating that nothing heavier is required even for track use regardless of how high the oil temp's get as the electronic safeties will at some point kick in before the oil gets too light. Period. Full stop. End of story.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top