Deeza Let Me Down

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Quick update. RockAuto is continuing to sell D stuff just that D is out of stock on my part. Expect new inventory in a week or so. Tore into her today. Good news is the D inner is as stiff as she was when I installed her last year. I am considering going with a Raybestos Professional grade replacement outer. It costs almost 60% more than D but I can get it now.

Any opinions on Raybestos Pro vs Deeza? I know some like Moog Problem Solvers but I have heard too many stories about sketchy Moog quality.

I do have a question about lubrication. How can inner tie-rod ends, ball joints and outer tie-rod ends without zerk fittings can be adequately lubricated at the factory whereas a tie-rod end with a zerk can not be? IOW, why can't Deeza be right when they say their outer tie-rod ends with zerk fittings are factory lubricated and do not need to be greased at installation?
 
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Raybestos Pro are good parts.
Originally Posted By: artbuc
How can inner tie-rod ends, ball joints and outer tie-rod ends without zerk fittings can be adequately lubricated at the factory

The inner is a linear joint with very little loading, the grease they put in there is more than enough for a long life, it is covered by a boot and not meant for regular servicing.
Lube for life joints are properly filled with high quality grease then have the boots sealed in place with split rings similar to a key ring.There is no place for this grease to go, it is captured in the joint and boot.

Originally Posted By: artbuc
why can't Deeza be right when they say their outer tie-rod ends with zerk fittings are factory lubricated and do not need to be greased at installation?

That is someone on the phone grossly misinformed.
The fact the joint does not have a boot that is sealed prohibits filling it with enough grease until after it has been installed. This type of boot also needs some sort of relief to let grease out if overfilled.

They smear assy grease in there to prevent rust possibly plugging the grease channels in the joint.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Raybestos Pro are good parts.
Originally Posted By: artbuc
How can inner tie-rod ends, ball joints and outer tie-rod ends without zerk fittings can be adequately lubricated at the factory

The inner is a linear joint with very little loading, the grease they put in there is more than enough for a long life, it is covered by a boot and not meant for regular servicing.
Lube for life joints are properly filled with high quality grease then have the boots sealed in place with split rings similar to a key ring.There is no place for this grease to go, it is captured in the joint and boot.

Originally Posted By: artbuc
why can't Deeza be right when they say their outer tie-rod ends with zerk fittings are factory lubricated and do not need to be greased at installation?

That is someone on the phone grossly misinformed.
The fact the joint does not have a boot that is sealed prohibits filling it with enough grease until after it has been installed. This type of boot also needs some sort of relief to let grease out if overfilled.

They smear assy grease in there to prevent rust possibly plugging the grease channels in the joint.



Well, I guess it is not that straightforward. I called Raybestos Tech Service to ask if I needed to grease their Professional Grade greasable outer tie-rod ends before first use. He quickly said no, not necessary because they are factory lubed. I asked how many miles before first lube and he said it was not too critical but the first oil change would be a good idea. I told him about my Deeza experience and he back-tracked somewhat saying it might be a good idea to add a little grease. I pushed back and said that is not a very good answer. Either they have to be lubed or they don't. He said he needed to pull up the drawing to examine their construction. After a couple minutes he came back and said it was probably a good idea to add a "little" grease before putting it into service.

My Deeza ends are back in stock at Rockauto and I ordered one this morning.
 
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Regardless of what their lowly paid tech support/customer service reps would say: my take is that if it comes with zerk fittings (greasable type), then always grease them before or immediately after 1st time installation.

You missed that part then the blame (unfortunately) is on you.

The sealed type of ball joints, tie-rod ends, etc. use a different methodology (it's packed inside with nylon materials, with just a little bit of assembly grease within those sealed joints) to provide the long service life and lubrication.

Q.

I've been using Deeza on all my own/my clienteles automobiles: from balljoints to sway bar end links. For those that came with zerk fittings: I always pump grease into it(zerk installed of course) and swing the ball joint quite a bit to distribute the grease before installation. Once installed: I'll pump a bit more grease into it to "finish" off the job.

The oldest Deeza I've installed so far is into it's 5th year of service: every year that vehicle came in for 2 rounds of service checks and ball joints still good...and then of course: I'd pump a bit of grease into it to "finish" off the deal before lowering it down onto the garage floor.
 
Originally Posted By: artbuc
Originally Posted By: Trav
Raybestos Pro are good parts.
Originally Posted By: artbuc
How can inner tie-rod ends, ball joints and outer tie-rod ends without zerk fittings can be adequately lubricated at the factory

The inner is a linear joint with very little loading, the grease they put in there is more than enough for a long life, it is covered by a boot and not meant for regular servicing.
Lube for life joints are properly filled with high quality grease then have the boots sealed in place with split rings similar to a key ring.There is no place for this grease to go, it is captured in the joint and boot.

Originally Posted By: artbuc
why can't Deeza be right when they say their outer tie-rod ends with zerk fittings are factory lubricated and do not need to be greased at installation?

That is someone on the phone grossly misinformed.
The fact the joint does not have a boot that is sealed prohibits filling it with enough grease until after it has been installed. This type of boot also needs some sort of relief to let grease out if overfilled.

They smear assy grease in there to prevent rust possibly plugging the grease channels in the joint.



Well, I guess it is not that straightforward. I called Raybestos Tech Service to ask if I needed to grease their Professional Grade greasable outer tie-rod ends before first use. He quickly said no, not necessary because they are factory lubed. I asked how many miles before first lube and he said it was not too critical but the first oil change would be a good idea. I told him about my Deeza experience and he back-tracked somewhat saying it might be a good idea to add a little grease. I pushed back and said that is not a very good answer. Either they have to be lubed or they don't. He said he needed to pull up the drawing to examine their construction. After a couple minutes he came back and said it was probably a good idea to add a "little" grease before putting it into service.

My Deeza ends are back in stock at Rockauto and I ordered one this morning.


Most of the time (there are exceptions) these tech lines are manned by clueless people working for short money working the phones looking up info as they go along.
Chances are the person you talked to has never replaced a tie rod or ball joint in their life.

Back when i started trade school 40 years ago i did lower ball joints on my moms car at home, i didn't grease them.
The guy at the parts store said they were pre greased (taking his word for it was the first mistake), i didn't ask the teacher (second mistake).
A few months later the ball came right out its socket and that was that, it was on the side of the road. Lesson learned and never repeated.
 
Originally Posted By: artbuc

Well, I guess it is not that straightforward. I called Raybestos Tech Service to ask if I needed to grease their Professional Grade greasable outer tie-rod ends before first use. He quickly said no, not necessary because they are factory lubed. I asked how many miles before first lube and he said it was not too critical but the first oil change would be a good idea. I told him about my Deeza experience and he back-tracked somewhat saying it might be a good idea to add a little grease. I pushed back and said that is not a very good answer. Either they have to be lubed or they don't. He said he needed to pull up the drawing to examine their construction. After a couple minutes he came back and said it was probably a good idea to add a "little" grease before putting it into service.

My Deeza ends are back in stock at Rockauto and I ordered one this morning.



The phone monkey was somewhat right, but probably only by chance...

The Raybestos Pro joints are for the most part constructed of a polished ball and a polymer bearing surface which requires very little lube to function properly. Of course it's a good idea to squirt some in there on install and also at regular intervals if it doesn't have a tightly sealed boot.

Now that being said, not all Raybestos Pro joints are of the polymer/polished ball construction. Some are still the bronze gusher bearing type and will need a fair bit of lube on a regular basis.
 
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Originally Posted By: artbuc

Well, I guess it is not that straightforward. I called Raybestos Tech Service to ask if I needed to grease their Professional Grade greasable outer tie-rod ends before first use. He quickly said no, not necessary because they are factory lubed. I asked how many miles before first lube and he said it was not too critical but the first oil change would be a good idea. I told him about my Deeza experience and he back-tracked somewhat saying it might be a good idea to add a little grease. I pushed back and said that is not a very good answer. Either they have to be lubed or they don't. He said he needed to pull up the drawing to examine their construction. After a couple minutes he came back and said it was probably a good idea to add a "little" grease before putting it into service.

My Deeza ends are back in stock at Rockauto and I ordered one this morning.



The phone monkey was somewhat right, but probably only by chance...

The Raybestos Pro joints are for the most part constructed of a polished ball and a polymer bearing surface which requires very little lube to function properly. Of course it's a good idea to squirt some in there on install and also at regular intervals if it doesn't have a tightly sealed boot.

Now that being said, not all Raybestos Pro joints are of the polymer/polished ball construction. Some are still the bronze gusher bearing type and will need a fair bit of lube on a regular basis.


Interesting. Wonder which design drawing he was looking at? Wonder why he did not tell me there are two different designs. IIRC, the product descriptions I have seen on various websites say they have gusher bearings.
 
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The way i understand it is the gusher type is more commonly used in greasable joints.
Who knows, i cant be bothered to start researching it, its easier just to put some grease in there.
 
It is getting worse. Just got the replacement. To their credit, Deeza acted quickly working through Rockauto to drop ship the part. BUT, unlike the original part made in their ultra-modern plant in Turkey (check-out their website) it was made in Taiwan. Plus, it has no zerk fitting which is one of the features Deeza touts on their website. Called Rockauto and they would not help saying they make no representation as to country of manufacture or product features. I have sent an email to Deeza. I have no intention of installing this part on my car or paying for the part, shipping or return shipping. Will keep you posted.
 
Originally Posted By: artbuc
It is getting worse. Just got the replacement. To their credit, Deeza acted quickly working through Rockauto to drop ship the part. BUT, unlike the original part made in their ultra-modern plant in Turkey (check-out their website) it was made in Taiwan. Plus, it has no zerk fitting which is one of the features Deeza touts on their website. Called Rockauto and they would not help saying they make no representation as to country of manufacture or product features. I have sent an email to Deeza. I have no intention of installing this part on my car or paying for the part, shipping or return shipping. Will keep you posted.


Why not? It appears you got a permanently pre-lubed part, there should be no problem this time. I wouldn't be surprised if a pre-lubed part was intentionally shipped to you to reduce any chance of the same problem happening. Install it!
 
I'd be seriously happy to have received a permanently lubed (sealed) replacement unit the 2nd time round, for that there's no more need for greasing before or after installation, period.

Just me though,

Q.
 
FWIW whenever I get a rebuilt tie rod end, ball joint or CV joint I 'range' them out good. If the dust boot is not wired on, I get in there and pre load it with moly grease, then assemble, and then grease with the gun. Permanently lubed part have the dust boot wired on, but I've been known to violate them, add more grease and seal them back up again.

But the 'ranging' thing is important IMO. You basically 'exercise' the joint throughout it's entire travel (CV joints too) 360 degrees and back and forth to make sure that grease is as evenly distributed as possible. It's important because you have to remember that most of the parts, once installed, have a very limited range of movement, spending it's entire lifespan pounding and grinding against maybe 20% of the friction ball's surface area, so the grease must be evenly spread in that area, with more grease in the immediate vicinity.
 
Originally Posted By: Quest
I'd be seriously happy to have received a permanently lubed (sealed) replacement unit the 2nd time round, for that there's no more need for greasing before or after installation, period.

Just me though,

Q.


Yeah except their ain't a bit of grease in this sucker. When you push on the boot there is zero resistance. It is totally empty. It is a no-name re-boxed part from Taiwan. In addition to the Deeza p/n, it also has a Moog and a Raybestos p/n. Seriously, would you install a no-name outer tie-rod end on your car?
 
Here is the first definitive statement I have found from a manufacturer stating the need to lube before use:

http://www.moogproblemsolver.com/4468/greasing-chassis-parts-helps-them-last-longer#.U_mih2K9KSM

PS Deeza came back to me and said they are now out-sourcing about 20% of their products plus they have changed the design of their tie rod ends to eliminate the zerk fitting. I told them they should update their website because it still says all of their products are made in their modern factory in Turkey and they still show their tie rod ends with zerks. Looks like Deeza is going to the dark side. I bought a Raybestos Profesional grade. No more Deeza for me.
 
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Originally Posted By: artbuc
Here is the first definitive statement I have found from a manufacturer stating the need to lube before use:

http://www.moogproblemsolver.com/4468/greasing-chassis-parts-helps-them-last-longer#.U_mih2K9KSM

PS Deeza came back to me and said they are now out-sourcing about 20% of their products plus they have changed the design of their tie rod ends to eliminate the zerk fitting. I told them they should update their website because it still says all of their products are made in their modern factory in Turkey and they still show their tie rod ends with zerks. Looks like Deeza is going to the dark side. I bought a Raybestos Profesional grade. No more Deeza for me.

See, one more reason that I've had enough of aftermarket parts and their constantly evolving quality issues. Just spend the extra dough for the Genuine (not OEM) part from the dealer.
 
Originally Posted By: artbuc
Here is the first definitive statement I have found from a manufacturer stating the need to lube before use:

http://www.moogproblemsolver.com/4468/greasing-chassis-parts-helps-them-last-longer#.U_mih2K9KSM

PS Deeza came back to me and said they are now out-sourcing about 20% of their products plus they have changed the design of their tie rod ends to eliminate the zerk fitting. I told them they should update their website because it still says all of their products are made in their modern factory in Turkey and they still show their tie rod ends with zerks. Looks like Deeza is going to the dark side. I bought a Raybestos Profesional grade. No more Deeza for me.


That too bad. I suspect the ones being outsourced are for US made cars if its not a part# that is shared with some Euro model.
Let us know where the Raybostos is made, this stuff changes so often now its impossible to stay on top of it.
 
I have always bought OEM parts but have been trying to use aftermarket selectively on my Avalon because it is 15 years old and driven less than 6k miles per year. I just can't see spending $55 for a Toyota tie rod end. The Raybestos Pro is $33 from Amazon with free shipping because I added some other stuff I needed to the order.

To Deeza's credit, they did agree to send me a pre-paid label so I do not have to pay for shipping to return the Taiwan part. Now, if I can get RockAuto to give me a credit for the part plus shipping I will come out whole. Still get screwed on the original failed part but the failure was most likely due to my own stupidity.
 
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