Vinyl and Rubber Protectant - Active Ingredients

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Originally Posted By: qwertydude


The amount of plasticizer is to keep the various seals all nice and soft, but that might not be the best idea for hard vinyl plastics as rubber seals benefit from extra softening conditioners and plasticizers, hard vinyl might be a little more unpredicatble what kind of reactions will take place.


Indeed, I was thinking of using it on rubber seals originally, not dashes.

Not sure we have any indication of the molecular weight of the dow 200 in the ags fluid
http://www.hazard.com/msds/f2/cgj/cgjmt.html

versus anything used elsewhere. Are you aware of the differences?
 
It should be safe on rubber seals no problem except again those plasticizers might not play well with the painted surfaces door seals seal to. So I still wouldn't wholeheartedly recommend anyone slather DOT 5 on door seals.

The plasticizers will still soften car paint since they were designed for rubber seals between metal components.
 
What basis do you have that plasticizers don't play well with cured paint?

I know nothing about this, but certainly am curious.
 
Modern paint is a polymerized acrylic. Those particular plasticizers, especially the dioctyl sebacate, will definitely soften the acrylic polymers. Although it won't bubble paint up like normal brake fluid long term exposure could end up softening the paint, those plasticizer don't just evaporate away. So they can remain in contact with the paint long term.

It won't affect a powder coat if it's worth anything to you.
 
Great, thanks. My real desire was just to buy pure silicone oil, but the brake fluid was the closest I got.

I would assume that those plasticizers are "good" for rubber seals?

Given your commentary about armor all not having VOC/petroleum distillates any more, and really just being an emulsion of silicone oil...

And given that silicone oil seems to be about the best thing besides Krytox for door seals...

Is Armor All the best product for protecting door seals from wear, UV, noise, etc?

Given the comments about softening paint, Im not sure that the brake fluid is a good idea, since the seals often touch the paint on one side.

But I like the idea of protecting them.

Silicone brake paste is another idea...
 
If your desire is to buy pure silicone fluid go to your local hobby shop that sells hobby grade remote control cars.

Silicone shock oil is 100% additive free silicone. You can get it anywhere from 10 weight to 100,000 weight. That's from nearly water thin to a gel that you have to scoop out with a spoon.
 
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Interesting read re: crossfire link you posted. I've been using the Meguires vinyl & rubber cleaner/conditioner he mentioned for years. First found it at West Marine in a blue bottle, then later discovered the tan bottle was the same. Recently picked up a bottle of it from WM as I was clean out.
Originally Posted By: Mike-in-Orange
303 is an excellent product, but I'd put our M40 Vinyl & Rubber Cleaner/Conditioner or Hyper Dressing up against it any day.


Just used Meguires "Back to Black" on the truck, the trim looks brand new
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: qwertydude
If your desire is to buy pure silicone fluid go to your local hobby shop that sells hobby grade remote control cars.

Silicone shock oil is 100% additive free silicone. You can get it anywhere from 10 weight to 100,000 weight. That's from nearly water thin to a gel that you have to scoop out with a spoon.


Great, thanks for the lead!

Is this stuff smarter/better to put on seals than something else that is _______???
 
Not really, other than needing high purity for dielectrical purposes, it's kinda a waste because it's only available in small 2-4 ounce sizes.

And like I said it would be hard to spread it really thin without wasting so much of it. Even the 100% silicone sprays are thinned with a quick evaporating solvent in order to leave the right amount, which is very little.

Applying full strength silicone would be messy and would leave so much oil on the seals that it would just be a big mess that attracts a ton of dust.

So if you want a pure silicone rubber treatment just buy 100% silicone spray. It really is good stuff. Some things you really are better off buying the off the shelf stuff, unless you want to buy one of those bottles, then buy some laboratory grade ether, and make your own spray. It makes no sense.

Just buy some Armor All or electrical grade silicone spray if 100% silicone is what you're after. But Armor All really isn't bad stuff contrary to popular "insider" belief.
 
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Sprays have an excessively tiny amount of silicone, and what's to say that they are a proper water-soluble form? Plenty of folks use krytox or Sil glide on their seals without dust issues, so if applied sparingly and wiped on/off well, it may be a non issue.

I prefer the cleanliness and convenience of a wipe-on product.

Some like vinylex, claim that the smaller molecular weight silicones act as a plasticizer, and that the uv package is some other additive product. Thoughts?

Back in an earlier day, we worked to disperse fine minerals into clear polymers so they stayed optically clear but had higher UV resistance. Silicone can be a uv amplifier, so there is a real consideration if silicone is suitable without an inhibitor. I see mixed commentary on its inhibiting versus amplifying characteristics, though if haven't read in detail.

Just want to do the best for dashes and seals on cars that I'm planning to keep indefinitely...
 
Like I said before, I don't know of any other non-solids based UV inhibitor that wouldn't be required to be listed on the MSDS. And even if you could get minerals to disperse clear, you'd only get so much of them in the mix before they either would build up in cracks and crannies in plastic or at a certain concentration stop being clear. But I suppose you could add certain sunblocking stuff I'm not too familiar with chemically speaking. Some research turns up some promising candidates like octocrylene but you'd have to list it in the MSDS if you did use it. Thus perpetuating my conundrum that if there were non-gras uv blockers we would know. And the gras ones wouldn't work without being obvious. It's a toughy.

But if 100% silicone spray works which I know from experience works very well, perhaps it works on a simple physical level for example the inert silicone helps to block free radicals like ozone, prevents the dissipation of the plasticizers and helps to contain UV damage to just the surface because I definitely know that simple 100% silicone sprays definitely helps protect plastics exposed to the elements. Maybe not 100% UV blocking but that's not the only factor killing exposed plastics. I know mineral oil simply doesn't work as effectively. And door seals are obviously helped by silicone but are rarely exposed to UV.


The claim that lightweight silicon oils is a plasticizer doesn't make too much sense chemically speaking silicone oils are about the most inert material possible. And most plastics simply don't absorb them. Maybe they're claiming some plastics that have a sort of molecular sieve type effect where very light silicones can lubricate enough to seem like a plasticizer but in reality aren't plasticizing, true plasticizers bond in between the polymer molecules to allow movement by allowing stretching between the polymer chains but stays bonded instead of lubricating and allowing the bonds to pass by each other, in effect a shearing action, plasticizers bond and allow movement without the shearing action.

Since it's just lubricating between the bond planes of the molecules giving a temporary softening effect. Such can be the effect with old and degraded plastic where the old plasticizer was removed or rendered inert through UV exposure or ozone oxidation. The silicone can lubricate in between molecules restoring softness at the expense of possible long term durability. This is actually how silicones damage leather too and the most likely scenario for why Armor All is claimed to damage plastics. The Armor All isn't damaging the plastic, the plastic already had the plasticizers rendered inert and water and silicones caused cracking by lubricating the already damaged planes between plastic molecules and the softening effect on a brittle material caused the cracking.
 
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By the way if you want something for door seal, probably the most cost effective is the Honda ShinEtsu grease. Please google it and try to find bad reviews for it.
 
Hmm $17 for a 4.8 ounce tube of 100% silicone grease. No thanks, I'll stick to $6 for electrical grade dielectric grease, which is unsurprisingly 100% silicone grease, or 100% silicone oil since I have plenty of different viscosities to experiment with because I also race RC cars. Same exact stuff. Google the MSDS.

Aerospace 303, ShinEtsu Grease, Zymol exotic waxes. Lots of stuff costs a lot of money. They all suffer from Chivas Regal effect. "I paid so much money it has to be good, HAS TO BE!" Hence you'll never see a bad review.
 
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Originally Posted By: qwertydude
Hmm $17 for a 4.8 ounce tube of 100% silicone grease. No thanks, I'll stick to $6 for electrical grade dielectric grease, which is unsurprisingly 100% silicone grease, or 100% silicone oil since I have plenty of different viscosities to experiment with because I also race RC cars. Same exact stuff. Google the MSDS.

Aerospace 303, ShinEtsu Grease, Zymol exotic waxes. Lots of stuff costs a lot of money. They all suffer from Chivas Regal effect. "I paid so much money it has to be good, HAS TO BE!" Hence you'll never see a bad review.


If you think $17 for 4.8 ounces is high.You'll love GM Krytox at $26.40 for .5 ounce.
I have a tube I bought many years ago.

http://www.amazon.com/DuPont-Krytox-General-Purpose-Grease/dp/B004568IC2
 
Originally Posted By: qwertydude
Like I said before, I don't know of any other non-solids based UV inhibitor that wouldn't be required to be listed on the MSDS. And even if you could get minerals to disperse clear, you'd only get so much of them in the mix before they either would build up in cracks and crannies in plastic or at a certain concentration stop being clear. But I suppose you could add certain sunblocking stuff I'm not too familiar with chemically speaking. Some research turns up some promising candidates like octocrylene but you'd have to list it in the MSDS if you did use it. Thus perpetuating my conundrum that if there were non-gras uv blockers we would know. And the gras ones wouldn't work without being obvious. It's a toughy.

But if 100% silicone spray works which I know from experience works very well, perhaps it works on a simple physical level for example the inert silicone helps to block free radicals like ozone, prevents the dissipation of the plasticizers and helps to contain UV damage to just the surface because I definitely know that simple 100% silicone sprays definitely helps protect plastics exposed to the elements. Maybe not 100% UV blocking but that's not the only factor killing exposed plastics. I know mineral oil simply doesn't work as effectively. And door seals are obviously helped by silicone but are rarely exposed to UV.


The claim that lightweight silicon oils is a plasticizer doesn't make too much sense chemically speaking silicone oils are about the most inert material possible. And most plastics simply don't absorb them. Maybe they're claiming some plastics that have a sort of molecular sieve type effect where very light silicones can lubricate enough to seem like a plasticizer but in reality aren't plasticizing, true plasticizers bond in between the polymer molecules to allow movement by allowing stretching between the polymer chains but stays bonded instead of lubricating and allowing the bonds to pass by each other, in effect a shearing action, plasticizers bond and allow movement without the shearing action.

Since it's just lubricating between the bond planes of the molecules giving a temporary softening effect. Such can be the effect with old and degraded plastic where the old plasticizer was removed or rendered inert through UV exposure or ozone oxidation. The silicone can lubricate in between molecules restoring softness at the expense of possible long term durability. This is actually how silicones damage leather too and the most likely scenario for why Armor All is claimed to damage plastics. The Armor All isn't damaging the plastic, the plastic already had the plasticizers rendered inert and water and silicones caused cracking by lubricating the already damaged planes between plastic molecules and the softening effect on a brittle material caused the cracking.



Thank you for these in-depth explanations. This is fascinating.
 
Originally Posted By: Colt


If you think $17 for 4.8 ounces is high.You'll love GM Krytox at $26.40 for .5 ounce.
I have a tube I bought many years ago.

http://www.amazon.com/DuPont-Krytox-General-Purpose-Grease/dp/B004568IC2


That's actually not that bad a price. The generic Krytox grease is $21 for .5 ounces on Amazon. And the larger sizes like 2 ounces is $52 for greater savings. Just saying ShinEtsu is just greatly overpriced dielectric grease. GM Krytox is just a little marked up but is a very specialized lubricant not normally available over the counter and also does double duty with very specialized aerospace and nuclear uses. And silicone is limited in use as a metal to metal lubricant, wheras Krytox can be used nearly anywhere in almost any environment between almost any materials and provide lubrication.

If it's one thing you'll learn in car repair, GM parts are never as overpriced as Honda parts.
 
Originally Posted By: qwertydude
Like I said before, I don't know of any other non-solids based UV inhibitor that wouldn't be required to be listed on the MSDS. And even if you could get minerals to disperse clear, you'd only get so much of them in the mix before they either would build up in cracks and crannies in plastic or at a certain concentration stop being clear. But I suppose you could add certain sunblocking stuff I'm not too familiar with chemically speaking. Some research turns up some promising candidates like octocrylene but you'd have to list it in the MSDS if you did use it. Thus perpetuating my conundrum that if there were non-gras uv blockers we would know. And the gras ones wouldn't work without being obvious. It's a toughy.

But if 100% silicone spray works which I know from experience works very well, perhaps it works on a simple physical level for example the inert silicone helps to block free radicals like ozone, prevents the dissipation of the plasticizers and helps to contain UV damage to just the surface because I definitely know that simple 100% silicone sprays definitely helps protect plastics exposed to the elements. Maybe not 100% UV blocking but that's not the only factor killing exposed plastics. I know mineral oil simply doesn't work as effectively. And door seals are obviously helped by silicone but are rarely exposed to UV.


The claim that lightweight silicon oils is a plasticizer doesn't make too much sense chemically speaking silicone oils are about the most inert material possible. And most plastics simply don't absorb them. Maybe they're claiming some plastics that have a sort of molecular sieve type effect where very light silicones can lubricate enough to seem like a plasticizer but in reality aren't plasticizing, true plasticizers bond in between the polymer molecules to allow movement by allowing stretching between the polymer chains but stays bonded instead of lubricating and allowing the bonds to pass by each other, in effect a shearing action, plasticizers bond and allow movement without the shearing action.

Since it's just lubricating between the bond planes of the molecules giving a temporary softening effect. Such can be the effect with old and degraded plastic where the old plasticizer was removed or rendered inert through UV exposure or ozone oxidation. The silicone can lubricate in between molecules restoring softness at the expense of possible long term durability. This is actually how silicones damage leather too and the most likely scenario for why Armor All is claimed to damage plastics. The Armor All isn't damaging the plastic, the plastic already had the plasticizers rendered inert and water and silicones caused cracking by lubricating the already damaged planes between plastic molecules and the softening effect on a brittle material caused the cracking.



Interesting comments and theory.

An interesting product is vinylex, where the msds does indeed mention the silicones and a uv inhibiting package.

http://www.lexol.com/msds/Lexol Vinylex MSDS.pdf

Zaino is claimed to have their own sunscreen in it, but there is no msds available.

I'm thinking there must be something in there similar to sunscreens, where there is a combination of dispersed solids and uv-reactive chemicals, but you're right, these things should be listed... But hey, look how useless the 303 msds is...

https://www.tapplastics.com/uploads/pdf/MSDS 303 Aerospace Protectant.pdf

The meguiars m40 msds is much better detail-wise.

http://www.meguiars.co.uk/attach/downloads/2826600_uk.pdf

A good patent read.

http://www.google.com/patents/US20120093747
 
Interesting posts, qwertydude-
However, there are many formulatios for "silicone". Perhaps 303 is using a more effective version that requires less conc. in it's product and justifies the higher price? Just saying...
 
There's no such thing as more effective silicone. Silicone is silicone in this case pdms and surfactant plus water. And a higher concentration is better for protecting except you'll get more gloss which some people don't like. You can vary the viscosity but considering all the other ones use a quite thin oil, none of them use thick oils. And yes I've tested it, when you evaporate them you're left with the pure silicone oil.

This is the very reason why people buy Aerospace 303, they're completely duped into thinking the stuff is magic when in reality it really isn't. And there's no real way to prove it except if you have the patience to compare Armor All and Aerospace 303 for a long continuous time and properly applying both frequently. I've done my own independent testing on some UV susceptible plastic and already proved to myself Aerospace 303 doesn't protect any better, and in many cases worse because it is watered down and washes off more easily.

It's far more likely Aerospace 303 is just watered down PDMS solution, I've tested it, a Meguiars rep already says it is, the MSDS says it is. And yet that's how strongly people want to believe it because all these years they just don't want to admit they're paying $16 a bottle for essentially 95% water.

It's expensive, it HAS to be good, HAS to. It's tough to let go of old beliefs. But if you do you'll feel a lot better knowing you can water Armor All down 5 to 1 and get the same performance as Aerospace 303 for a fraction of the price of even Armor All.
 
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Originally Posted By: qwertydude
. . .
It's expensive, it HAS to be good, HAS to. It's tough to let go of old beliefs. But if you do you'll feel a lot better knowing you can water Armor All down 5 to 1 and get the same performance as Aerospace 303 for a fraction of the price of even Armor All.


I don't believe it's not watered-down Armor-All because it's expensive, I believe it's not watered-down Armor-All because there's only one person saying that it is.
This isn't to say you're wrong - maybe you're right - but I become skeptical when one person in a nation of over 300,000,000 claims to have unraveled some secret scam that no one else could see.

Fortunately, it will be easy enough to try it for myself for a few bucks worth of Armor-All and some water
wink.gif
 
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