Why Don't people enjoy driving a manual trans??

[Win]

Originally Posted By: expat


If you learn MT early on I think you will always find an AT lacking ....


I learned on a three on the tree - with a clutch pedal that came up through the floor, and honed my "skill" picking up and hauling trash with a heavily laden flat bed truck. If it ever had synchros, they were long gone by the time I was driving it. That thing had an awesome granny gear - no matter how heavily laden it was, or how steep the incline, or how tired you were from loading and dumping trash in 100+ degree Arkansas heat and humidity, you couldn't stall it. Even a granny could drive it.

I don't find modern AT's lacking in any way. The 5L40E in my G8 and its programming is terrific. So is the ZF in the Xj8.

The idea that smoothly driving a little econo box with a tiny four or six banger, a tiny clutch, and a fully synchro'ed transmission is some type of great skill is really just laughable. It really shows off the lack of depth of motoring experience, imo.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: expat


If you learn MT early on I think you will always find an AT lacking ....


I don't find modern AT's lacking in any way. The 5L40E in my G8 and its programming is terrific. So is the ZF in the Xj8.

So in some spirited road or track driving, you are perfectly happy to have your your auto upshift to top gear on corner entry and then have it try to guess what gear you want midcorner as you start to apply the throttle, and then downshift a time or two on corner exit?
I'd rather just pick the right gear on entry with a mtx so I have some throttle response to adjust the balance of the car when I want to, anywhere in the corner.
I suppose you can manually pick a gear in your atx cars, but then you are finding the trans programming lacking...

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: expat


If you learn MT early on I think you will always find an AT lacking ....


I don't find modern AT's lacking in any way. The 5L40E in my G8 and its programming is terrific. So is the ZF in the Xj8.

So in some spirited road or track driving, you are perfectly happy to have your your auto upshift to top gear on corner entry and then have it try to guess what gear you want midcorner as you start to apply the throttle, and then downshift a time or two on corner exit?


You are very ignorant of how well programmed, modern, automatic transmissions work.

 

[cutter]

I like not looking like a schlub when I rent cars in Europe.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: jimbrewer
Not all manuals are created equal. A manual Toyota will be a little more fun to shift than a manual Nissan.


Nissan's must be really bad. I have never warmed up to my Camry, I think it's like the Civic we used to have. Half (or more) which is the engine's fault. I've never gotten used to slow responding gas engines; DBW and emissions controls have somehow left my TDi seem more responsive to letting off throttle. I'm always trying to remember in the Camry that I have to let off the throttle before I even think about hitting the clutch, else it will rev up. And for some reason I always slip the clutch in 2nd, sometimes third (but that could be the hyper tip-in that it has).

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
So in some spirited road or track driving, you are perfectly happy to have your your auto upshift to top gear on corner entry and then have it try to guess what gear you want midcorner as you start to apply the throttle, and then downshift a time or two on corner exit?


This is the product of poor A/T programming, and is probably my biggest complaint with how the domestic vehicles I did own are programmed...especially those of 5-10 years ago. Our 2007 Chrysler minivan was pretty maddening when driven on hills. Constant up- and down-shifting as it always hunted for the gear it wanted. The 8-speed in a rental 300 I had was similar to some degree...it was always straight into the highest possible gear. The obvious advantage is improved fuel economy, but the disadvantages are a'plenty in my opinion.

I choose to not own vehicles with that type of programming. Drive an Acura or a Honda AT back-to-back with one from a Chrysler minivan, for example, and you find that there is no comparison in how well it operates. The Honda's AT isn't constantly hunting for top gear. If you are in a lower gear to climb a hill and have to let off the throttle mid-hill, it won't jump up a gear or two...it'll wait until it's sure that you're done climbing the hill. If you apply brake and the car doesn't slow much, it realizes that you're using the brake to control speed down a hill and it'll downshift the transmission a gear or two on its own.

I'm not saying that Honda's transmission programming is the best out there, but it makes the cars enjoyable to operate. You're not constantly fighting with the transmission with your right foot, trying to get it to do what you want it to do.

 

[IndyIan]

Interesting, I don't have much experience in newer auto cars, but I have watched quite a few in-car videos of auto cars at the track and they do still tend to shift a weird times, corner exit downshifts especially. Now with all the nannies going, it hardly matters, the shift is smooth, and doesn't seem to break the back end loose, but its not what a human would do.
I know most people don't care about this kind of stuff, and I guess good for them. I have no reasons not to drive a manual and it makes the mundane commute a little more interesting, with a few rev matched downshifts for the fun corners. Or even a under-revved downshift in the Tracker to get the backend loose on entry on gravel corners. Its all about having a little more control of the car, not absolute performance anyways.

 

[lexus114]

because it isnt fun here where i live to drive a standard trans anymore. just too much traffic (thanks new jersey/new york)

 

[Win]

All of the sensors that enable the stability control nannies, also enable the performance algorithms.

It knows to hold gear in a hot corner so you can balance the chassis with the throttle and not need a downshift at the exit. They know to downshift for engine braking and not to creep at idle.

With the right programming, the days of the slushbox are long gone. I'm sure some car makers are better at it than others.

 

[SteveSRT8]

The moment you brake aggressively or corner hard enough my car automatically enables a 'track' mode that downshifts as you approach a corner, holds the gear (no matter what you do) in the corner, and shifts at redline. Even after you slow down and smooth out it can take as long as 15 seconds to fall back into normal mode.

It's really a cool thing to feel the car wake up and respond, and it really does work well at the track if you know how to drive smoothly.

This car was built in 05, I am certain modern cars are MUCH better now...

 

[telecat]

Stick shifts for me. NV1500 in my S10. Love it.

 

[hattaresguy]

Cause I live in the traffic choked Northeast, a stick is annoying in traffic, more so in a truck. Been their, done that, I love AC cranking stomp and go auto's.

Really these days manual transmissions are a bit of a throw back.

 

[Volvohead]

As clever as some of them have become, I'd like to think most of us here are still smarter than a TCM.

 

[jimbrewer]

"he idea that smoothly driving a little econo box with a tiny four or six banger, a tiny clutch, and a fully synchro'ed transmission is some type of great skill is really just laughable. It really shows off the lack of depth of motoring experience, imo."

I agree. Driving a stick shift to me is just a small life skill that a person should have, like the ability to build a fire in a fireplace, or the ability to touch type, only not as difficult to learn. Rental cars in Europe often come with a stick. You ought to have that option in life.

What I don't understand is why manufacturers pay so little attention to the feel of their sticks. That ought to be a pretty easy thing to dial in from an engineering standpoint. What the average driver considers to be a "fun" transmission ought to be well understood too. If they are going to bother to offer a manual transmission they might as well do it right.

 

[geeman789]

Originally Posted By: Win
All of the sensors that enable the stability control nannies, also enable the performance algorithms.

It knows to hold gear in a hot corner so you can balance the chassis with the throttle and not need a downshift at the exit. They know to downshift for engine braking and not to creep at idle.

With the right programming, the days of the slushbox are long gone. I'm sure some car makers are better at it than others.


You put a lot of faith into " IT..." not killing you... !

Good luck with that... !

 

[whip]

Originally Posted By: geeman789

You put a lot of faith into " IT..." not killing you... !

Good luck with that... !


Can you give an example of a situation where an automatic transmission killed someone?

 

[Win]

Thanks, I'll take all the luck I can get!

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
The moment you brake aggressively or corner hard enough my car automatically enables a 'track' mode that downshifts as you approach a corner, holds the gear (no matter what you do) in the corner, and shifts at redline. Even after you slow down and smooth out it can take as long as 15 seconds to fall back into normal mode.

It's really a cool thing to feel the car wake up and respond, and it really does work well at the track if you know how to drive smoothly.

This car was built in 05, I am certain modern cars are MUCH better now...

I drove a Ferrari F430 Spyder F1 at one of those "drive a supercar" thingies. Wasn't allowed to take it out of automatic mode. It was definitely the least intolerable automatic transmission I've ever driven. It held gears and downshifted almost exactly as I would have liked.

Oddly enough, my Mom's '08 Mercedes C300 Luxury seems to have a mode that's at least vaguely like what you described. It's not nearly as good as that, but it's way better than normal everyday programming.

So, where does this leave the comparison with a 3-pedal manual? As I see it, there are two main reasons for wanting a manual transmission:

1. More involvement
2. A 1:1 relationship between your control inputs and the car's responses

Modern TCU programming certainly goes a long way toward closing the gap on point 2. It's possible (albeit still fairly rare) to have an automatic that operates fairly transparently.

We're still stuck with point 1, though. There's no way around the fact that, with an automatic, you just aren't doing as much or getting as much out of your drive.

 

[surfstar]

I enjoy driving my Civic b/c I am mechanically connected to the gearbox and throttle. My Vue is also a stick shift, but it uses cables that are horrible for shift feel and DBW which disconnects you from the throttle. NOT enjoyable to "drive".

I believe I could opt for an auto in a newer vehicle. The Mazda 6spds sound very well put together and even eek out a MPG advantage. If the reliability is there, I'm sold.

 

[Vibe_2007]

The reason is simple as to why I do not own a car with a manual. My wife will not let us buy one because she doesn't want to learn to drive one.

I had one my whole life prior to marrying my wife and I miss it. I really wanted one in the Mazda 2 we just bought, but couldn't convince her.

My 1st car was a 1985 Renault Alliance with a 4 speed manual. Couldn't imagine a small car with 77hp like that [censored] mobile with an automatic.