What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline?

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Was listening to the farm show on WHO radio out of Des Moines, IA the other day and there are some ethanol producers that are making contracts with farmers regarding buying up corn stover and making ethanol. Seems the cellulosic ethanol game has started moving the ball down the field. Time will tell if that is a worthwhile thing.

While in forums, it would seem that the ethanol thing really chaps some folk's hides, one has to take into account that many folks willingly opt for purchasing ethanol blends. There have been ethanol blends at the pumps longer than the EPA or any other government group has been heavily promoting the use of it. E10 has been a staple among fuel choices in Iowa for almost 4 decades. If consumers hadn't wanted it back then, the retailers would have been averse to storing it in tanks and letting it go bad. It never was that big of a price difference at the pump to make it some sort of sweet deal to purchase it.

So of those that hate ethanol in their fuel, there are as many or more that either have no issues, or willingly opt for the fuel. You sure do not hear some hue and cry coming out of the general populace that they are upset with ethanol at the pumps, even if mandated by some government agency. It is not leaving vehicles as steaming hulks along the road, many times the blend is a few cents cheaper so that any mpg losses are covered, and in the final analysis, most folks do not fee they are being cheated in some way. A few on the forums might be, but that is not the consensus of the majority of the buying public. I for one. I have opted for ethanol blends since the late 70's. Used it in every gasoline powered engine with nary any issues. I understand that folks should be able to not buy it if they choose to, and I support that.
 
I would bet most people don't have a clue they are even using ethanol. My big complaint is I have no choice.All the gas around me is blended.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I would bet most people don't have a clue they are even using ethanol. My big complaint is I have no choice.All the gas around me is blended.

Like I said before, even without specific biofuels targets, in California there's a strong incentive to use ethanol. Given that the futures price for fuel ethanol is less than $2/gallon, it's not that hard to understand in a marketplace where competing with lower prices or making higher profits is a strong incentive. The consumer mostly doesn't care because the fuel economy differences aren't enough to notice and most modern vehicles have no issues with E10. It's also a marketplace here in California where there's a high demand for higher octane rating fuels, and ethanol is the easiest way to boost that without having large amounts of lower octane fuels that can't be sold as motor fuel. Sure it's possible to divert the higher octane streams to making ethanol-free premium, but that would likely result in lots of fuel that won't be suitable for use in vehicles.

Of course the dynamic would be different if the price of gasoline was cheaper. However, I don't know if that will change any time soon. China and India have a taste for a middle class lifestyle that includes personal motor vehicles. That demand is what's driving up prices. As long as that demand is there, ethanol will likely be cheaper than gasoline.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I would like to see the cost of ethanol at the pump instead of wholesale price.

It's too hard to figure that out since denatured fuel ethanol isn't typically sold at the pump. However, you can compare the wholesale price of ethanol to the wholesale price of gasoline. It's less than 2/3 for the base fuel.

http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/energy/ethanol/cbot-ethanol.html
http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/energy/refined-products/rbob-gasoline.html

I had to look up what RBOB means. It's "Reformulated Regular Gasoline Blendstock" meant for blending with 10% ethanol to get 87 AKI octane unleaded. I'm taking a wild guess, but I would think that ethanol-free 87 octane would probably cost more. So it's not only the ethanol costing less, but the blending gasoline costing less.

Again - I don't think the ability to boost the octane rating of unleaded by a full point is something that fuel sellers are likely to ignore, especially in markets like California where demand is higher for premium.
 
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Yes but there are higher cost to the transportation of ethanol. It needs to come in by truck whereas gasoline comes out of pipelines.

There is only about a $0.30 a gallon difference (lower) between E85 and E10 87 oct around me.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Yes but there are higher cost to the transportation of ethanol. It needs to come in by truck whereas gasoline comes out of pipelines.

There is only about a $0.30 a gallon difference (lower) between E85 and E10 87 oct around me.

Ethanol can be delivered by pipeline. It would have to be a specialty pipeline, but with demand there will be a reason to build such a pipeline. In the end ethanol is still going to cost less per gallon than gasoline, as well as meet octane rating demand. Also - E10 can be transported by pipeline.
 
Currently they bring all the ethanol into my local terminal in trucks, then pump it off into a feeder tank. Then blend it with the fuel when loaded into another truck.

The stuff is horrible in my small engines that are not used very often.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Currently they bring all the ethanol into my local terminal in trucks, then pump it off into a feeder tank. Then blend it with the fuel when loaded into another truck.

The stuff is horrible in my small engines that are not used very often.

I certainly understand certain concerns about adding ethanol to fuel. However, it's not as if there aren't practical reasons for E10 where fuel sellers would find it desirable. The vast majority of gasoline is sold for use in modern vehicles with modern sealed fuel systems, and for that use E10 is fine.

It's still going to cost less - at least to the seller. The cost of E10 delivered to the fuel depot and lower octane fuel for E10 blending is going to be less than an equivalent octane rating ethanol-free fuel. Whether or not they pass on the lower cost to the consumer may be another matter. In a competitive marketplace I would think they would.
 
It still sucks that I cannot get straight gas. It is not competitive when the government mandates the use of the fuel.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
It still sucks that I cannot get straight gas. It is not competitive when the government mandates the use of the fuel.

Like I said, we would get it in California regardless. There's a high demand for higher octane rated fuel, and fuel ethanol is the easiest way to produce enough 87/91 to meet the demand without having leftover fuel that has to be sold in specialty markets.

MTBE used to be the standard in California. In many ways it's superior to ethanol. Pretty much nobody will use it now in fuels.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I would like to see the cost of ethanol at the pump instead of wholesale price.


Me too. But along with that, I would like to see the real cost of gasoline and diesel at the pump. You know, the cost of lives of our military folks to keep the oil flowing. How about the numbers of innocent folks that have died as a result of oil money that has gone to some unscrupulous folks that are bent on destroying those that don't agree with them, all under the name of religion, so called. I am not sure that ethanol has the body count to it that gasoline has. But keep hope alive! Maybe we can rack up the body count over ethanol like we have over petroleum. After all, fair is fair, right?

If we could put all the military expenditures we have wasted on petroleum alone at the pump, I am sure there would be a lot of outrage when it comes time to fill the family car. But hey, that's he neat thing isn't it? We hide these costs from the consumer at the pump and they are as happy as a pig in slop. All of this nonsense at the direction of a government that always finds a way to mess things up. They may not have the ethanol thing right, but they sure have made a real mess out of petroleum as well.
 
shoz, the gov. does not mandate ethanol in gas anymore. I get my ethanol free gas at Conoco station here in lakewood all year long
its now up to the stations.bing ethanol free gas in your area.
 
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I just purchased a 2014 Terrain 6 cyl, and I've been reading about the carbon deposit issues with direct injection engines. I know about the "catch cans" and such that can be added. But I was wondering which fuel would tend to create less of a carbon deposit...the blended ethanol or 100% gas?

The owners manual states that a "top tier" gas should be used, and I use Shell exclusively. The top tier issue is really a non issue though since the detergents in the top tiers don't "wash" the areas where the deposits occur.

A local station sells 100% gas today for $3.62 vs $3.30 for the blend...I'm lucky to be in an area with cheap gas.
 
Originally Posted By: mudpuddle
The owners manual states that a "top tier" gas should be used, and I use Shell exclusively. The top tier issue is really a non issue though since the detergents in the top tiers don't "wash" the areas where the deposits occur.

I think the fuel still gets to the valves to some extent, but obviously not directly sprayed onto the valves like you'd find with port fuel injectors. There's one chemical company that claims to have an additive that helps clean the valves on direction injection engines.

https://www.aftonchemical.com/ProductDataSheets/Fuel/HiTEC-6470_PDS.pdf
 
Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22
shoz, the gov. does not mandate ethanol in gas anymore. I get my ethanol free gas at Conoco station here in lakewood all year long
its now up to the stations.bing ethanol free gas in your area.


The EPA most certainly does mandate ethanol or rather renewable fuels.

That's great you can get 100% gasoline. I can't.
 
the feds lifted that mandate!two years ago left it up to the stations!!! that's why over 50 stations here in Colorado sell ethanol free gas all year long.conoco explained that to me. also shell stations here have < 10% ethanol in gas the company choose to cont to use ethanol year long.not sure what the law is in this state.
 
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Originally Posted By: SHOZ

The EPA most certainly does mandate ethanol or rather renewable fuels.

That's great you can get 100% gasoline. I can't.


The EPA does mandate, but they do not mandate down a the station level. They only mandate that so much ethanol be used in the fuel supplies. That can go as E85, E30, E15, E10, etc. There is no mandate that each and every gallon of gas have ethanol in it. That is usually a state directed thing. Put the blame where it needs to be.

Now, I had mentioned elsewhere that GM is working on the 3.2L EBDI engine that uses E85 and kicks out as much power as the larger Duramax Diesel. Well, Cummins has been working behind the scenes on a 2.8L E85 engine also. 250 HP, 450 lb torque. 4 Cyl inline engine.

http://www.truckinginfo.com/channel/equi...mmins-says.aspx
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: SHOZ

The EPA most certainly does mandate ethanol or rather renewable fuels.

That's great you can get 100% gasoline. I can't.


The EPA does mandate, but they do not mandate down a the station level. They only mandate that so much ethanol be used in the fuel supplies. That can go as E85, E30, E15, E10, etc. There is no mandate that each and every gallon of gas have ethanol in it. That is usually a state directed thing. Put the blame where it needs to be.

There is the winter oxygenate mandate in certain areas that have high CO levels. However, that's not legally an ethanol or renewable fuels mandate. It used to be met with MTBE, but nobody will touch that stuff now with the possibility of contamination of groundwater sources. And I haven't heard of methanol being used in fuel in ages, except as a gas-line antifreeze.

http://epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/420b08006.pdf
 
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