VW 502 to 504 really worth it?

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Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
just surprises me to why VW wouldnt just use 504 do oil Changes every 5k and have less repairs and a better reliability record vs 10k oil changes with 502 to save money?

Because they don't want their cars to be seen as requiring more frequent maintenance than all the other Euro makes.

There is no evidence that doing 10K oil changes with 502 results in any better or worse reliability than doing 5K oil changes with 504.
 
Can you guys help me get this turbo into my GTI to see if 504 is REALLY good or not?

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He he Jeff
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
just surprises me to why VW wouldnt just use 504 do oil Changes every 5k and have less repairs and a better reliability record vs 10k oil changes with 502 to save money?

Because they don't want their cars to be seen as requiring more frequent maintenance than all the other Euro makes.

There is no evidence that doing 10K oil changes with 502 results in any better or worse reliability than doing 5K oil changes with 504.

That, and they probably have deal with Castrol. So they are getting dirt cheap Castrol 5W40, doing 10K OCI, they look like any other Euro manufacturer, plus, they take $600 on deposit cleaning.
Now, if they start to use 504.00/507.00 that means using more expensive oil, which means increasing price of oil change, plus doing it every 5K. So average customer that has no any idea what is going on under the hood, will ask these questions:
1. VW is in the start more expensive then comparable Honda Accord (same equipment etc).
2. Honda Accord (or similar car) requires any 5W30 synthetic oil, meaning, if you go to 10 minut oil change place, they will change your oil, put Mobil1 5W30, refill your fluids etc, everything for some 59.99. In the meantime, if VW starts using 504.00/507.00 they will at least charge it 99.99, plus you have to do it every 5K, plus only in dealership (we are talking here about average Joe).

I have friends that drive VW, we start discussing cars, and I get out of conversation ASAP as soon as I realize that they bought car just because it looks nice, nothing else. If I start talking about all this, they would probably sell their car. They are happy, they think that is how things work, and I just leave them with that.

On other hand, people that hang out here are enthusiasts, and the way we maintain our cars, they can make 400K if you ask me.
So, while this discussion is useful I think it is more along the lines that we just like to do something under the hood, so we are trying to find excuse to experiment
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Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I'm just saying I have 4 UOAs of M1 0w40 so I know what my universal averages will be. If all of a sudden my wear metals are all out of whack it's common sense is the oil. What else?

Those UOAs are only useful in comparison to the same lube, and definitely not with something of slightly different viscosity and varying chemistry. UOAs are not designed to compare oils, nor can they function as such.
 
So if UOAs can't prove one oil is better then another then what's the point? Just to see what your TBN is and if you have a coolant leak?

Edyvw your spot on I agree.

We tinker on stuff is why we do it but because of people like us cars are better today.

Jeff
 
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Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
If the lubrizol report is correct there is.

Yet your VW mechanic thinks your engine will require periodic carbon cleaning, regardless what oil you run.
 
Correct. The VW shop Foreman that worked on my car said in his experience the valve cleanings will need to be done. It just varies by personal driving style, maintenance, fuel type used and oil.

Eventually it WILL need to get done.

Just part of life having a DI motor.

Jeff
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Anyone know the Noack of PU Euro 5w30 L by chance?

Jeff

IDK, since PU L is different then Shell Helix L.
I think it is due to base stocks since PU is Made in USA, while Helix is Made in EU.
Helix L is on par with M1 ESP.
 
According to the latest MSDS, it's a PAO based synthetic. The outdated technical data sheet says the NOACK is 11%. I posted a UOA using the PU Euro L 5W30 in my GTI. I didn't need to add any oil. Google Shell Lubricants Data Centre
 
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
According to the latest MSDS, it's a PAO based synthetic. The outdated technical data sheet says the NOACK is 11%. I posted a UOA using the PU Euro L 5W30 in my GTI. I didn't need to add any oil. Google Shell Lubricants Data Centre


I understand what the web site stays the Noack is but it has to be incorrect to be 11% with the certs this oil carries.

Considering PU Euro 5w40 is 6.7% I reckon it should be around that figure.

Jeff
 
After much discussion wtih a few VW mechanics I think the 504 thing is out the window for me. I have PU 5w30L in at the momment but will ditch it and stick with my 0w40 M1.

Just seems that the mechanics dont feel its worth the risk to take in "hopes" that you get cleaner valves out of the deal. VW did have a patent on the intake valves which most of you guys probably already know about but I will post it here.

VW PATENT ON DI INTAKE VALVES

So in "Theory" and what the VW pro's that I have been in contact with say if I do what the patent says to do (basically a Italian Tune up at least once a month) should net me as clean of valves as I can possibly get. Even then, the cleanings are STILL going to be needed at some point or another.

Though the Italian Tune up option, if done correctly and often enough, should eliminate the issue. I think the 502 oils just are going to keep wear down IMO. Yes I cannot prove that, but it does make sense that an oil with more additives will be less prone to wear.

No I am not a scientist and yes I know there are WWAAYY smarter people than I on this site that will argue this, and if you can just post up some proof for the "common" man to rationalize.

Till then, unless someone proves me wrong or otherwise, Good Ol' tried and true M1 0w40 502 spec approved is going back in next oil change.

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Sorry Guys.

Jeff
 
This is right off the VW PATENT to sum up the "Italian Tune-Up"

An additional approach for reducing the formation of carbon deposits on the intake valves 20 is to increase the intake valve temperature, at least temporarily, since, surprisingly, it was found that any carbon deposits possibly present are removed at temperatures above 380° C. To this end, the intake valve unit, which comprises, among other components, the intake valves 20 and the valve stem guide 28, is designed with means that hinder heat dissipation in such a way that increased surface temperatures of more than 380° C. develop at least in the area of the neck 68 of the intake valves 20 in at least one predetermined region of the load characteristic diagram 74 of the internal combustion engine. This is illustrated in FIG. 4. The intake valve temperature is above 380° C. in the shaded region 112 b of the characteristic diagram. At these temperatures, carbon deposits on the intake valves 20 are removed. This region 112 b of the characteristic diagram occurs, for example, at speeds over 3,000 rpm, and in that speed range. extends essentially to full load. Even if the internal combustion engine is not operated most of the time in the region 112 b during normal driving operation of a motor vehicle, nevertheless, carbon deposits that could adversely affect the operation of the internal combustion engine cannot build up, since their removal in the shaded region 112 b of the characteristic diagram occurs very quickly. For example, operation of the internal combustion engine in this region 112 b of the characteristic diagram for a period of, for example, 20 min., is sufficient to remove even a thick layer of carbon deposits. In other words, a routine expressway trip cleans the intake valves 20 sufficiently. In addition, this region of the characteristic diagram can be entered in the course of maintenance or repair work on the internal combustion engine in an automotive workshop.

THIS may be your best bet to fight Intake valve deposits on ANY Engine that has DI since most Intake valves on DI engines are plated.

Jeff
 
You are giving too much thought into this.
If oil retains TBN after 5K, why is it bad to use it?
Why mechanics think you are risking anything here? Especially in CA where fuel is better then in rest of the U.S?
If oil retains TBN, TAN is OK, flash point is OK, cst is OK, then there is some benefit to that oil. At least that oil does not leave as much of deposits, you cans till do italian tune up, and your CAT will definitely flow better.
 
I am not sure exactly what the "risk" is either. I think it could be they really don't know and since VW recommends 502 in North America maybe the mechanics don't want to get into a he said he said argument? The one VW mechanic in Palm Springs where I had to take my car in told me 504 is fine just change it more often.

Yeah I give it allot of thought because these cars can get very expensive to fix. That is something I'm not really used to.

Sometimes I think the DI technology is more hassle then it's worth.

Then again some companies with DI may not have these problems? Who knows.

Jeff
 
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