VW 502 to 504 really worth it?

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Hello everyone, been a while since I have posted and for some that is probably good news haha.

Folks that have read some of my posts know how up in the air I was on using a 504 approved Oil in my VW GTI vs the recommended 502. Some of this post may sound repetitious but I am just giving a bigger picture for those that have not read any of my posts.

VW 502 is a High SAPS oil, I was using M1 0w40 and changing it every 5K miles. UOA's showed that this was totally fine.

Then the whole Lubrizol Report about "newer" Low SAPS oils and how they "may" contribute to as much as 47% decrease in carbon vavle deposits of which are VERY common on DI motors.

So this got me thinking. mmmmm (maybe thinking too much) That I should give the 504 oil (Low SAPS) a try. So I ordered up some PU Euro 5w30 L (say that 3x's fast geeze) and filled my GTI with it about a month ago, or say around 1200 miles ago.

To make a long story longer, my GTI was at the dealer getting serviced on an issue I was having and while there I was talking with the mechanic that was a very cool guy by the way. We spoke about oil and he was actually quite knowledgeable. Yeah I was surprised too. He was telling me sure I could use a 504 but to change it every 3-5K miles, but then stated that its not really the sulfur in our gas alone that makes the use of 504 "questionable" to use. I asked what else. He said that the 504 oil does't really like Ethanol. Ethanol in CA is at a minimum of 10% and some places are converting to E15 or 15% ethanol now. He was saying that the 504 does not hold up well with it. He also went on to say that most likely I will need to get my valves cleaned anyway, its just a matter of when. I asked how much that is and he said around $600 and they media blast the valves. he considered this "routine" maintenance on a TSI motor.

So yeah yeah, I know, its an opinion and probably a truth, and then I got to thinking some more. So far with the 504 oil in. I have not noticed ANY change in the behavior of the motor itself. So many people have claimed a smoother running engine, revs better, less turbo lag and this is coming from GTI forums. For me? I have noticed none of that. I have actually noticed a drop in MPG's by 2. Though I am thinking this "could be" do to use of the A/C more since its been in the 100F+ range for the past month.

So I was calculating in my head (scary thought) and came up with, if I use a 504 in hopes that the valves stay cleaner (the whole point to use it) it generally costs me about $20 more to use vs. the M1 0w40 I can get at Wallyworld. Calculate that my lets say 70K miles and I realized that how much more I am paying for the Low SAPS oil, oveer time, would just be the cost of the Valve cleaning job anyway.
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So unless the 504 oil in itself is "better" and that is subjective at best, I am now questioning my decision to go with it in the first place.
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So for me, I throw this out there again, and I know certain folks are gong to bash me
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because I am so indecisive but Im just trying to learn and figure things out. Keep in mind that my car is in the most demanding of environments. Very extreme heat in summers. very dusty and on top of that my car is Turbo Charged and is DI.

Since Low SAPS oils do have less additives so to speak, do they protect critical engine parts as well? Or what ever is in there even in lower quantities is sufficient, you just have to change it more frequently? Basically is my engine going to wear quicker using this stuff? Is it worth the money to you guys?

I dont like changing brands of oil all the time, but a friend on these forums uses M1 ESP in his TSI equipped car and likes it. I am using the PU version 5w30 Euro L but am not really impressed. Maybe my expectations were to high? Or was thinking that water was going to turn into wine or something haha.

Let the bashing commence.
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Jeff
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I am using the PU version 5w30 Euro L but am not really impressed.

What is it that you were expecting it to do, exactly? It's a friggen oil.
smile.gif


If you want to save money and still run mid/low SAPS oil, buy Valvoline Synpower 5w-40 from Walmart.

As far as the ethanol comment, I thought they were using similar amounts of ethanol in most places in Europe as well. Or did they abandon that idea?
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I am using the PU version 5w30 Euro L but am not really impressed.

What is it that you were expecting it to do, exactly? It's a friggen oil.
smile.gif


If you want to save money and still run mid/low SAPS oil, buy Valvoline Synpower 5w-40 from Walmart.

As far as the ethanol comment, I thought they were using similar amounts of ethanol in most places in Europe as well. Or did they abandon that idea?


I believe The minimum ethanol requirement here in Europe is 5% 10 is however just as normal.
 
The difference in the US is that we have different ECU fuel mixture programming due to different emissions standards. This results in more gasoline getting dumped into the oil.
 
I think it is more for the turbo charger and trying to keep it from burning or cokeing up the oil. I think the important thing is using a good quality synthetic, changing it at 5k miles or so. My daughter had a 1.8L turbo in a beetle. Changed it with synthetic religiously. Tranny problems got it before engine or turbl
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I am using the PU version 5w30 Euro L but am not really impressed.

What is it that you were expecting it to do, exactly? It's a friggen oil.
smile.gif


If you want to save money and still run mid/low SAPS oil, buy Valvoline Synpower 5w-40 from Walmart.

As far as the ethanol comment, I thought they were using similar amounts of ethanol in most places in Europe as well. Or did they abandon that idea?




I just heard so many people say that their car ran "smoother" better "MPG's" Better turbo "spool up". I mean, it seemed like man I have to try this stuff!!

I just didn't notice any difference vs the M1 0w40. None at all.

Jeff
 
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If I owned a gasser VW I'd use the 504.00 oil. To me, the idea of reducing intake deposits by 47% is enough incentive to give it a try.

You can order 504.00 oil on-line for as low as $6.00 a liter (when you buy 20 liters) so the price really isn't an issue.

I drive a TDI Jetta which requires 507.00 oil and for years I had oil mist accumulate around the lower intercooler duct. When I changed my brand from Mobil (Mobil-1 ESP 5W-30) to Pentosin SuperPerformance III 5W-30 the misting stopped completely.

I am a firm believer that not all oils are created equal. I am also a firm believer that VW's latest 504/507 rated oils are more than adequate for use in North American operated vehicles.
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I just heard so many people say that their car ran "smoother" better "MPG's" Better turbo "spool up". I mean, it seemed like man I have to try this stuff!!

I just didn't notice any difference vs the M1 0w40. None at all.

Both these oils have nearly identical HT/HS viscosity, and for that reason you won't notice any different spool up or MPG.
 
For me the cost is about $50 for 6 qts. vs. $25 for 5 qts of the M1 0w40.

Im hoping the PU 5w30 L wont cause any oil issues in the intercooler pipes. Im still trying to figure out what the NOACK of this dang stuff is. It says 11% on the website but that is impossible with the approvals that it carries.

Jeff
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX

I just heard so many people say that their car ran "smoother" better "MPG's" Better turbo "spool up". I mean, it seemed like man I have to try this stuff!!

I just didn't notice any difference vs the M1 0w40. None at all.

Jeff


That just means you didn't get fooled by placebo effect.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I just heard so many people say that their car ran "smoother" better "MPG's" Better turbo "spool up". I mean, it seemed like man I have to try this stuff!!

I just didn't notice any difference vs the M1 0w40. None at all.

Both these oils have nearly identical HT/HS viscosity, and for that reason you won't notice any different spool up or MPG.

Yeah you are on point.
M1 0W40 is 3.8 and PU L is 3.68.
M1 ESP is 3.58 same as GC.
 
Originally Posted By: FowVay
If I owned a gasser VW I'd use the 504.00 oil. To me, the idea of reducing intake deposits by 47% is enough incentive to give it a try.

You can order 504.00 oil on-line for as low as $6.00 a liter (when you buy 20 liters) so the price really isn't an issue.

I drive a TDI Jetta which requires 507.00 oil and for years I had oil mist accumulate around the lower intercooler duct. When I changed my brand from Mobil (Mobil-1 ESP 5W-30) to Pentosin SuperPerformance III 5W-30 the misting stopped completely.

I am a firm believer that not all oils are created equal. I am also a firm believer that VW's latest 504/507 rated oils are more than adequate for use in North American operated vehicles.

How you like Pentosin? I can get locally but decided to order M1 ESP.
 
Since the 504 oils have less additives this may not mean more wear correct?

Maybe 504 oils use some type of additives that don't show up on a UOA?

I will find out. If my wear metals increase then back to 502 I go.

Diesels are low reving motors I do an italian tune up on my car often ha ha hope this PU 5w30 L is half as good as people think (or hope) it to be.

Jeff
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I will find out. If my wear metals increase then back to 502 I go.

Hmmm, that doesn't seem to be a valid way to determine which lube is performing "better."
 
Your car is not in "the most demanding of environments", truthfully. I think you underestimate the conditions that VW tests their vehicles in.
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX


I will find out. If my wear metals increase then back to 502 I go.


Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

Secondly, it is easy to assume that by carrying out a UOA you will be able to determine how quickly the engine is wearing out. As well, if you change lubricant Brands you will be able to compare the wear metal uptake results and then make a balanced best lubricant choice to make your engine last longer.

Sadly that logic is seriously flawed.

Single pass (random) UOAs will provide some information regarding wear metals but unless you have a history of your engine’s performance up to around 1 million miles the results are simply that – UOA results! As an example a limit of 150ppm of Iron is a reality – after say 100k it means the lubricant should be changed and all is well. But what is the situation if you have 150ppm of Iron at 5k? Where would you look what would or could you do? So UOAs are really a diagnostic tool – one of many!



http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis/

-Dennis
 
Most manufacturers come to my area to do durability testing
Here and Phoenix area. VW States to use 502 for North America. Maybe they feel that type of oil will withstand our climate better? Is what I'm getting at. If it's just a matter of gas quality wouldn't vw rather use an oil that would reduce operation costs and help projected reliability?

Just curious on that. If 504 was that good.
 
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX


I will find out. If my wear metals increase then back to 502 I go.


Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

Secondly, it is easy to assume that by carrying out a UOA you will be able to determine how quickly the engine is wearing out. As well, if you change lubricant Brands you will be able to compare the wear metal uptake results and then make a balanced best lubricant choice to make your engine last longer.

Sadly that logic is seriously flawed.

Single pass (random) UOAs will provide some information regarding wear metals but unless you have a history of your engine’s performance up to around 1 million miles the results are simply that – UOA results! As an example a limit of 150ppm of Iron is a reality – after say 100k it means the lubricant should be changed and all is well. But what is the situation if you have 150ppm of Iron at 5k? Where would you look what would or could you do? So UOAs are really a diagnostic tool – one of many!



http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis/

-Dennis


So according to this I should just use Castrol since they worked with VW in testing of the cars engine life cycle?

I'm just saying I have 4 UOAs of M1 0w40 so I know what my universal averages will be. If all of a sudden my wear metals are all out of whack it's common sense is the oil. What else?
 
Manufacturers are testing their cars all around the world. I see them testing here in Colorado Springs all the time at Pikes Peak.
So, VW 504.00/507.00 is very well capable oil to withstand 120-130f. I see no reason why not.
Take this into consideration.
Motul X-Clean 5W40 has HTHS of 3.64cp.
PU L 5W30 has HTHS 3.68cp.
 
Good point. Edyvw just surprises me to why VW wouldnt just use 504 do oil Changes every 5k and have less repairs and a better reliability record vs 10k oil changes with 502 to save money?
 
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