What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline?

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Originally Posted By: yvon_la
I ll speak for my view.the main issue with ethanol is its love for water.and the fact it is very harsh on engine part.if you are at 1% or 2% level you are fine.its probably even beneficial.but at 10% or more?it isnt good long term.


This is completely false with regard to any contemporary vehicle. HUGE portions of the country have nothing else but ethanol added fuels, and cars are designed and built to safely use them.

I do not like the goofy justifications for its use either, but let's not become completely ludicrous...
 
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: 29662
E10 offers less power than comparable E0 Gasoline.

Do you have a source for that claim? I understand the other potential issues, but I've never heard that less power will be produced. It would produce just as much power by dumping a higher volume of fuel. I've even read that in certain carb applications where the jets are increased in size, E10 can actually increase power because it overcomes the air restrictions by getting more oxygen in the combustion chamber.

Flex fuel cars running on E85 are known to have increased performance, but that's a matter of advancing the timing.


Gasoline has an enrgy density of 45MJ(MegaJoules) per kg. compared to 26.8MJ for Ethanol. You can verify these numbers for yourself. Given that Gasoline has a higher enrgy density than Ethanol and the finite limit on air volume intake(due to throttle body restriction) the same motor can make more HP on Gas than on Ethanol.

And with regards to flex fuel vehicles making more power, that hasn't been my experience. And they get far worse mileage. You can build an engine that will make more HP using Ethanol but the engine has to be specifically built for that purpose. It's not just a matter of advancing the timing. You can only advance the timing so far before it becomes counterproductive.

Just for fun stoich for Ethanol is 9:1, Gasoline is 14.7:1.

SRT8, I believe what yvon_la might be referring to is that Ethanol is often considered to be a "dry" fuel in that it is far less lubricious than gasoline. Just one of the reasons for differing fuel pump design and materials between gas and flex fuel vehicles.
 
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Originally Posted By: 29662
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: 29662
E10 offers less power than comparable E0 Gasoline.

Do you have a source for that claim? I understand the other potential issues, but I've never heard that less power will be produced. It would produce just as much power by dumping a higher volume of fuel. I've even read that in certain carb applications where the jets are increased in size, E10 can actually increase power because it overcomes the air restrictions by getting more oxygen in the combustion chamber.

Flex fuel cars running on E85 are known to have increased performance, but that's a matter of advancing the timing.




Gasoline has an enrgy density of 45MJ(MegaJoules) per kg. compared to 26.8MJ for Ethanol. You can verify these numbers for yourself. Given that Gasoline has a higher enrgy density than Ethanol and the finite limit on air volume intake(due to throttle body restriction) the same motor can make more HP on Gas than on Ethanol.

And with regards to flex fuel vehicles making more power, that hasn't been my experience. And they get far worse mileage. You can build an engine that will make more HP using Ethanol but the engine has to be specifically built for that purpose. It's not just a matter of advancing the timing. You can only advance the timing so far before it becomes counterproductive.

Just for fun stoich for Ethanol is 9:1, Gasoline is 14.7:1.

SRT8, I believe what yvon_la might be referring to is that Ethanol is often considered to be a "dry" fuel in that it is far less lubricious than gasoline. Just one of the reasons for differing fuel pump design and materials between gas and flex fuel vehicles.


It should be stated that there is POTENTIAL for more power. If you carefully quantify that statement as "per unit of measure" then it is technically correct. Alcohol fueled cars need hugely increased quantities of fuel to make the same power as pure gasoline. Careful tuning can easily show that Alcohol may make MORE power in certain applications.

And I stand by my comment. Any modern car will run just as long on E10 as pure gas. We see it every day here in our fleet. No one is running straight Alky...
 
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Ethanol has less energy per unit mass than petrol and uses more for a stoichiometric mix.

A stoichimetric mix of gasoline and air contains 2.83 MJ (per Kg of mix), versus 2.69 for ethanol, or 2.69 for methanol, so in an equivalent engine, alcohols make less power...as Steve says, take advantage of equivalent octane, and in E85 the charge cooling effect of adding more latent heat of vaporisation (better V.E.) you can make more power.

Problem is that the bloke making slightly less power runs past you you when you run out (of pure ethanol), and runs about 50% further on a tank.

As to E10, it was pretty well worked out in the 80s that a 10% blend only had issues really with elastomers, not with engines.
 
I've been using E10 here in Illinois since the 70's. I do get less gas mileage than with E0. It does keep the engine cleaner (IMHO). I is not good for my small engines as it absorbs water when they sit unused. It eats up the small fuel line hoses on my 2 cycle hedge trimmer. It is great for my turbo 2L Hyundai but that is because of the cooling effect that ethanol has. If I could get E0 I would assuming the difference in mileage would make up for any increase in cost.
 
I use e10 gas in everything. Have never had a fuel related problem, ever.

I use it in lawnmowers, cars, everything.

Pick a station that moves a lot of product, and buy your gas there. That has been my motto.

I usually go to costco on my way home from work, they are busy all the time.
 
Originally Posted By: JustinH
I use e10 gas in everything. Have never had a fuel related problem, ever.

I use it in lawnmowers, cars, everything.

Pick a station that moves a lot of product, and buy your gas there. That has been my motto.

I usually go to costco on my way home from work, they are busy all the time.

Any modern car should run just fine on E10. Any carmaker who hasn't accounted for ethanol in the choice of fuel line components is incompetent.

Also, a modern electronic fuel injected engine will produce just as much power with E10 as it will with non alcohol fuel - all things considered. That means equivalent octane rating, although that so of gets fudged a bit because of the complexities of (R+M)/2. The biggest issue for peak power is going to be getting air into the cylinder and not that the fuel has 3% less energy content per unit volume.

Now at this moment, denatured fuel ethanol is cheaper than gasoline. So there is a bit of incentive to use ethanol. Now whether or not these cost savings actually make it to the retail market is another matter. E10 is ubiquitous these days. It's pretty much a requirement in some jurisdictions. I think MTBE was probably superior, but it had certain issues not related to its performance as a fuel component. But my point is that the market isn't really going to reflect a linear relationship between to wholesale cost of gasoline/ethanol/additives and the retail price of finished fuel.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: 29662
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: 29662
E10 offers less power than comparable E0 Gasoline.

Do you have a source for that claim? I understand the other potential issues, but I've never heard that less power will be produced. It would produce just as much power by dumping a higher volume of fuel. I've even read that in certain carb applications where the jets are increased in size, E10 can actually increase power because it overcomes the air restrictions by getting more oxygen in the combustion chamber.

Flex fuel cars running on E85 are known to have increased performance, but that's a matter of advancing the timing.




Gasoline has an enrgy density of 45MJ(MegaJoules) per kg. compared to 26.8MJ for Ethanol. You can verify these numbers for yourself. Given that Gasoline has a higher enrgy density than Ethanol and the finite limit on air volume intake(due to throttle body restriction) the same motor can make more HP on Gas than on Ethanol.

And with regards to flex fuel vehicles making more power, that hasn't been my experience. And they get far worse mileage. You can build an engine that will make more HP using Ethanol but the engine has to be specifically built for that purpose. It's not just a matter of advancing the timing. You can only advance the timing so far before it becomes counterproductive.

Just for fun stoich for Ethanol is 9:1, Gasoline is 14.7:1.

SRT8, I believe what yvon_la might be referring to is that Ethanol is often considered to be a "dry" fuel in that it is far less lubricious than gasoline. Just one of the reasons for differing fuel pump design and materials between gas and flex fuel vehicles.


It should be stated that there is POTENTIAL for more power. If you carefully quantify that statement as "per unit of measure" then it is technically correct. Alcohol fueled cars need hugely increased quantities of fuel to make the same power as pure gasoline. Careful tuning can easily show that Alcohol may make MORE power in certain applications.

And I stand by my comment. Any modern car will run just as long on E10 as pure gas. We see it every day here in our fleet. No one is running straight Alky...


When you say any modern car, which years? After 1980, 1990, etc? Just curious what you think. I do know personally, I would not run E10 in anything before 1980's... Gasket issues, etc.
 
I had a '79 Mustang 4 cyl and it knocked badly on straight 87 octane but they came out with the E10 in Illinois after '80 some time and it ran like a dream. It's all I ever ran in the car. Put over 140k on it before the seat fell through the floor and no fuel problems at all.

As it is now there is no other gas you can get around me but E10.
 
Originally Posted By: Boss302fan


When you say any modern car, which years? After 1980, 1990, etc? Just curious what you think. I do know personally, I would not run E10 in anything before 1980's... Gasket issues, etc.

I was thinking anything since maybe the early 90s. Even when there were manufacturer's recommendations that E10 was OK, they might still have been working out some of the compatibility issues. But since then no vehicle should have issues with E10 if regularly driven.
 
In anything other than a regularly run car, I run premium pure gas. I have proven to myself that the regular E10 loses its ability to burn that greater BTU potential fairly quickly as it ages. Once it starts degrading fuel economy is absolutely terrible as is the performance of the engine, backfiring hesitation and lower response. I know premium retains its BTU's longer and am willing to pay a little extra to have that.

For those cars that get driving regularly where the E10 can be fresh, they get the regular and I live with the less expensive but slightly decreased performance and the less BTU's it brings
frown.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
For those cars that get driving regularly where the E10 can be fresh, they get the regular and I live with the less expensive but slightly decreased performance and the less BTU's it brings
frown.gif


Again, I understand the issue of fuel economy. I don't understand the claims that there will be decreased performance provided the fuel isn't degraded. A fuel-injected engine will account for the slightly lower energy density by using a slightly higher volume of fuel. I understand that carbs may have some issues, but in many cases tuners have increased the size of the jets and can actually produce more power compared to non-ethanol gasoline.

Anyone found a dyno test that verifies this claim that E10 reduces power?
 
No blanket claims for increases or decreases with E10 because not all mfgrs use the same hardware or tuning in their engines.

This must be related to the specific vehicle or it is meaningless as not all vehicles can adjust themselves for ethanol content...
 
I've seen cars running e-85 that made awesome power at the track,and they never overheated in the lanes running all day
HOWEVER
They had twin fuel pumps,1" fuel lines and drank alcohol faster than a sailor in port,so yes ethanol has high hp potential however they've gotta burn a ton of it to achieve that power.
 
Originally Posted By: JustinH
I use e10 gas in everything. Have never had a fuel related problem, ever.

I use it in lawnmowers, cars, everything.

Pick a station that moves a lot of product, and buy your gas there. That has been my motto.

I usually go to costco on my way home from work, they are busy all the time.

At present I have two or three E0 stations in my area. If they stop selling the fuel, I might look into Costco. From what I can tell, I'd save a bit of money every year, since they sell gas at quite a reduction over other stations, more than enough to pay for the membership. And I have a Costco directly on my morning commute.
 
Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
Originally Posted By: JustinH
I use e10 gas in everything. Have never had a fuel related problem, ever.

I use it in lawnmowers, cars, everything.

Pick a station that moves a lot of product, and buy your gas there. That has been my motto.

I usually go to costco on my way home from work, they are busy all the time.

At present I have two or three E0 stations in my area. If they stop selling the fuel, I might look into Costco. From what I can tell, I'd save a bit of money every year, since they sell gas at quite a reduction over other stations, more than enough to pay for the membership. And I have a Costco directly on my morning commute.

You might have to wait in line depending on the time of day; I've given up before. You'd also be limited to using American Express, a debit card with PIN, or their gift cards.

However, Costco operates them as a convenience for their members. There are rumors that they barely make any money off of their gas sales and are fine with it.

The real benefit is that they have better trained employees than most gas stations and there's always one out there available. I've talked to a few, and some even know stuff about cars, compared the kid working his way through college at a mini-mart. They have recent equipment and keep it better maintained than most. And the most important thing could be their extremely high turnover of their fuel, so there just isn't "old gas" in their tanks.
 
Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
Originally Posted By: JustinH
I use e10 gas in everything. Have never had a fuel related problem, ever.

I use it in lawnmowers, cars, everything.

Pick a station that moves a lot of product, and buy your gas there. That has been my motto.

I usually go to costco on my way home from work, they are busy all the time.

At present I have two or three E0 stations in my area. If they stop selling the fuel, I might look into Costco. From what I can tell, I'd save a bit of money every year, since they sell gas at quite a reduction over other stations, more than enough to pay for the membership. And I have a Costco directly on my morning commute.



Here the costco pumps use shell fuel from what I've seen because that's what's advertised on the sides of the tankers filling the underground tanks.

And no worries about stale gas. That place is always 6 cars back minimum on every pump. Their turnover rate is unreal.
 
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
Originally Posted By: JustinH
I use e10 gas in everything. Have never had a fuel related problem, ever.

I use it in lawnmowers, cars, everything.

Pick a station that moves a lot of product, and buy your gas there. That has been my motto.

I usually go to costco on my way home from work, they are busy all the time.

At present I have two or three E0 stations in my area. If they stop selling the fuel, I might look into Costco. From what I can tell, I'd save a bit of money every year, since they sell gas at quite a reduction over other stations, more than enough to pay for the membership. And I have a Costco directly on my morning commute.

You might have to wait in line depending on the time of day; I've given up before. You'd also be limited to using American Express, a debit card with PIN, or their gift cards. . . .

When I pass by the Costco, there's usually one or two cars at most. I get to work early. So I'd have to purchase a membership, then a gift card too, which I would have to put x amount of dollars on? They don't take cash?
 
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