Break in reman engine: Best Dino + Maybe Additive

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I agree and realize that. I was looking for an answer as to why PYB, a Bitog favorite was on his short list of oils not to use.

Mola answered it better than I could have. The only thing I'd reinforce is that PYB's moly level is in the friction modification range, perhaps not high enough to be in the AW range.

Mola: Here's a question. Given that race oils have some pretty high ZDDP levels and some rather low TBN, how would they be for break in? Or, do they have issues with friction modifiers? I see so many break in lubes as monogrades, and just wonder if there are better options out there.


I think since they have FMs they would make the break-in period longer.

Joe Gibbs 5W30 is a multigrade.

 

[Garak]

I kinda thought some of them would have FMs, for sure. Oh well. As for Joe Gibbs, every time I hear that name, my wallet bites my behind in warning.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trav
No problem but why does Honda specifically require its use for assy on rebuilt engine?
I mean its a fair question seeing as its in the FSM IMO.


You know the more I think of this the more questions I have. If moly is so important for the first firing and lets say 30 minutes run time of a new or rebuilt engine, and then better not being present after that time, for cylinders and rings breaking in. Why does Honda insist in not changing their high moly content "mix" early? We're pretty sure it isn't a special oil, but moly is present from assembly, raises the count in analysis and they want it to stay in there. That confuses me.......

 

[Trav]

This thread puts some posters in a bad spot. Go with the FSM written by the engineers who built the engine or the cam makers who manufacture the cams or a regarded internet forum poster.

Let me throw this out there while we are at it.
A SBC and other distributer engines many times could be primed with a drill not so with a crank driven oil pump.
Without some sort of solid paste or oil mix a dry start and component wear would be unavoidable.

I was hoping to get an answer as to why all these manufacturers demand the stuff be used and the poster is against it.
I don't think its going to happen so the thread will disappear into oblivion.

 

[Shannow]

Maybe it's a forest and trees thing...maybe Honda just want you to keep with the break-in process that they've engineered/tested.

BIOTOGers, being what we are search for the hidden meaning, and it must be a super advanced break-in oil, but the only thing that we can find is moly...

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trav
No problem but why does Honda specifically require its use for assy on rebuilt engine?
I mean its a fair question seeing as its in the FSM IMO.


You know the more I think of this the more questions I have. If moly is so important for the first firing and lets say 30 minutes run time of a new or rebuilt engine, and then better not being present after that time, for cylinders and rings breaking in. Why does Honda insist in not changing their high moly content "mix" early? We're pretty sure it isn't a special oil, but moly is present from assembly, raises the count in analysis and they want it to stay in there. That confuses me.......

Honda is very firm on keeping factory filled oil with very high Moly(may be from the assembly lube) for full OCI, they said very clear that it help breaking in the engine.

Every Honda build many millions engines for many different applications, I think they know engine(s) better than most.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Maybe it's a forest and trees thing...maybe Honda just want you to keep with the break-in process that they've engineered/tested.

BIOTOGers, being what we are search for the hidden meaning, and it must be a super advanced break-in oil, but the only thing that we can find is moly...


I'm with you on that. I just go by the recommendations of the manufacturers when i put the engine back together.
I get all the clearance specs from the FSM and FSM addendum's and have to assume they are correct so i also assume they know what compounds they want on the parts for break in.
I don't know maybe i think in the box but it seems to work alright.

Would this no moly break in oil poured over the bearings and cam provide the same protection at initial start as the GN paste?
Whats you opinion Shannow, your up on all this.

 

[DWC28]

I am a little confused by what is the function of a break in oil. I have always thought they were to cause parts to wear together so they fit better. But if we are putting more anti-wear into them would not they prevent the break in wear? Also if you have highly loaded cam shafts that need more zinc, would not that be important for the entire life of the cam and not just at break in?

 

[Eddie]

You are trying to burnish parts to "bed" them together. Wear is a strong word here and is often misused. Camshaft lobs are often work hardened by use and zinc is needed to keep the lobs from wearing. High break-in levels of zinc are therefore not needed after the parts are broken-in.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: DWC28
Also if you have highly loaded cam shafts that need more zinc, would not that be important for the entire life of the cam and not just at break in?

If it were highly loaded, I would agree. Look at the more dedicated race oils and street performance oils. We can call the latter kind of gimmicky or based upon marketing, but the race oils can be pretty serious.

For something very modest like my Ford 300, I doubt I'd need a pile of ZDDP.

 

[4wheeldog]

Originally Posted By: DWC28
I am a little confused by what is the function of a break in oil. I have always thought they were to cause parts to wear together so they fit better. But if we are putting more anti-wear into them would not they prevent the break in wear? Also if you have highly loaded cam shafts that need more zinc, would not that be important for the entire life of the cam and not just at break in?


"Break in" has always been a bad representation for what is being achieved........The Limey term "Run in" is better. You are not so much wearing things in, as polishing them......The rings/cylinders being the only thing that really requires that the parts fit themselves to each other. Otherwise, you are trying to achieve surface treatment, and avoid wear.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Eddie
Camshaft lobs are often work hardened by use and zinc is needed to keep the lobs from wearing.


That's the question isn't it. If only zinc could achieve this result why does Honda and other car makers as well as major cam manufacturers require a moly paste or moly grease/oil mix?
It is not optional this or that the spec is clear.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trav
No problem but why does Honda specifically require its use for assy on rebuilt engine?
I mean its a fair question seeing as its in the FSM IMO.


You know the more I think of this the more questions I have. If moly is so important for the first firing and lets say 30 minutes run time of a new or rebuilt engine, and then better not being present after that time, for cylinders and rings breaking in. Why does Honda insist in not changing their high moly content "mix" early? We're pretty sure it isn't a special oil, but moly is present from assembly, raises the count in analysis and they want it to stay in there. That confuses me.......

Honda is very firm on keeping factory filled oil with very high Moly(may be from the assembly lube) for full OCI, they said very clear that it help breaking in the engine.

Every Honda build many millions engines for many different applications, I think they know engine(s) better than most.


I realize Honda knows their engines. Molakule also knows oil, and it was the high moly content that got me scratching my head when he said this which goes sort of goes against Honda's logic. What he said makes makes a lot of sense re-reading it. You want the rings and cylinders to wear in a bit during break in and don't want moly to slow or prevent it.

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
You have some good Break-In oils today such as

Amsoil, Break-In Oil

or

Joe Gibbs BR 5W30.


I would steer away from any oil that high moly content such as Redline or PYB, and don't add any friction modifiers.

You want anti-wear additives, not friction modifiers.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Molakule knows oil for sure. But what he said was totally against Honda practice. There were ample evidences that Honda FF has very high Moly, more than even Redline's 600-700 PPM.

I don't think I ever need to worry about rebuilt engine(s), but I will follow Honda recommendation of keeping FF for the full MM for my daughter's 2014 Accord. I didn't replace the FF in my S2000 early either.

 

[Garak]

I think we also have to remember what Mola has written before about certain levels of moly having AW characteristics. Incidentally, aside from moly assembly lubes, what's the chemistry behind other assembly lubes?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Whats you opinion Shannow, your up on all this.


I don't know at all, other than all the stuff I did had a gray moly disulfide on the cam, half an hour at speed, with a dino 30, and then an oil change.

HDMOs were preferred as they had deterngecy and no FMs...some people had success with FM oil in breakin, but many had glazing with the likes of GTX.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
other than all the stuff I did had a gray moly disulfide on the cam, half an hour at speed, with a dino 30, and then an oil change.

Same here, it seems to work fine. Never had a Gas Monkey fiasco either.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Molakule knows oil for sure. But what he said was totally against Honda practice. There were ample evidences that Honda FF has very high Moly, more than even Redline's 600-700 PPM.



That was my point. Obviously both methods seem to work.

 

[Zaedock]

We typically use Lubriplate 105 on cylinder walls and rings during assembly. Moly paste is great for bearings, cam and lifters - except roller lifters. Adding moly paste can impede the roller function and destroy the camshaft very quickly.

 

[DWC28]

For assembly lube, one function is to lubricate the part before the oil can arrive in sufficient quantity to do its job. Camshafts need lubrication for the very start and a few minutes running dry can cause wear problems.