War in Ukraine

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Originally Posted By: Trajan


Germany, and everyone else, thought the same thing after the Winter War. And no, they didn't nearly get their [censored] handed to them.




I'd say the wehrmacht pushing to 20 miles outside of moscow and causing 1 million russian casualties tends to qualify as nearly handing them their [censored]. Had Hitler not been an insane evil megalomaniac (then of course none of WWII would have happened anyway...) and micro managed his generals Germany would have prevailed on the eastern front. Plenty of those under the boot of stalin in the satellite holdings of ussr saw the German army as liberators, not conquerers (because they were conquered by stalin...) Read How Hitler could have won WWII: The fatal errors that led to nazi defeat by Bevin Alexander before you heap too much glory on the former ussr in WWII. The nazi party was evil, no arguments there but the German people tried numerous times to assassinate Hitler and right the terrible course he set their nation upon. To this day I would not want to p!ss off the German people. They have a resolve, methodicalness, and cohesiveness above many other nations to achieve whatever end they choose to pursue. Well, I'm way off topic now.
 
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Originally Posted By: Trajan


Germany, and everyone else, thought the same thing after the Winter War. And no, they didn't nearly get their [censored] handed to them.




I'd say the wehrmacht pushing to 20 miles outside of moscow and causing 1 million russian casualties tends to qualify as nearly handing them their [censored]. Had Hitler not been an insane evil megalomaniac (then of course none of WWII would have happened anyway...) and micro managed his generals Germany would have prevailed on the eastern front. Plenty of those under the boot of stalin in the satellite holdings of ussr saw the German army as liberators, not conquerers (because they were conquered by stalin...) Read How Hitler could have won WWII: The fatal errors that led to nazi defeat by Bevin Alexander before you heap too much glory on the former ussr in WWII. The nazi party was evil, no arguments there but the German people tried numerous times to assassinate Hitler and right the terrible course he set their nation upon. To this day I would not want to p!ss off the German people. They have a resolve, methodicalness, and cohesiveness above many other nations to achieve whatever end they choose to pursue. Well, I'm way off topic now.


Good points here. Part of the current hatred in Ukraine vs Russians and vice verse is that Ukraine sided with Hitler against Russia after it was "liberated" by Germans.

This is very analogues to the Serbian civil war/ethnic cleansing in 1990's. Serbs used to be allied, Bosnia was axis. Both committed WW2 atrocities. Then, all [censored] broke loose when they both gain independence. Note that Russia sided with Serbia then. They were just too poor and powerless to matter and NATO took matter in their own hands. Unfortunately, Russia is too powerful for that to happen again.

The reality is China will eclipse economically USA this year. USA will have to adjust to not be #1 anymore. It will be tough for USA as well as all the world, as a lot of different nations wants or will want to settle all kinds of grievances by force.
 
Originally Posted By: R80RS
Large segments of Belarus and the Baltic states are also home to significant populations who consider themselves Russian first.

The number on Russian ethnics in Belarus is just under 8%, Estonia around 25%, Latvia 27%, and Lithuania 6%.

In Latvia this is partially the result of a 1949 deportation of a quarter million Latvians to Siberia and "settlement" of Russians by Stalin. In Estonia more than 10% of the entire population was deported to Russia as laborers or sent to Soviet gulags. These people were also replaced by Russians.

Estonia and Latvia joined NATO in 2004. Given that, and the entrenched dislike of ethnic Russians by the natives in both countries as a result of Russian ill-treatment, I would expect an attempt by Russia to make them vassals again would bode very ill for the resident ethnic Russians.
 
The bottom line is that the majority of eastern Ukraine is
ethnic Russian and they want to be reunited with Russia, the silly sanctions that the west is trying to punish Russia with will not prevent the ethnic Russians from reconnecting with Russia.
In fact because the Russian people, and Putin understand REAL history they will actually push harder.

I applaud the Russians for looking out for their own and telling the Globalists to pound sand. Congrats to them!
 
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
The bottom line is that the majority of eastern Ukraine is
ethnic Russian and they want to be reunited with Russia, the silly sanctions that the west is trying to punish Russia with will not prevent the ethnic Russians from reconnecting with Russia.

Good. Because that's not the point of the sanctions.

The point of the sanctions is to punish Russia for sticking its military where it doesn't belong.


Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I applaud the Russians for looking out for their own

Now this definitely falls into the category of things that deserve no response other than to underline the fact that they were actually said.
 
One has to remember that no one really gives a [censored] about the Ukraine, what the question is is how expansionist is Putin. IE will he decide he wants next, or is this it.

Who knows other than his inner circle.

A couple decades from now I can easily see a Chinese, Russian alliance for a resources grab in their perspective spheres.
 
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Originally Posted By: hattaresguy


A couple decades from now I can easily see a Chinese, Russian alliance for a resources grab in their perspective spheres.


Yep, new axis. It'll be sooner than decades though.
 
Originally Posted By: shDK
I won't argue against the USSR being controlled from Moscow. But there was different governments or dictators across the USSR. And for instance, the invasion of both Hungary and Czechoslovakia was because of elections choosing the wrong goverments from Moscow's point of view or from the existing governments falling due to revolution.

DDR last leader was also Eric Honecker. Not Mikhail Gorbachev

All because they at least on paper. was Different states


I was in the DDR in 1984, actually in country not the Berlin transit corridor. At the border were East German border guards but the guy 10 ft behind them in camo sure wasn't.
Dresden Hauptbahnhof had a few Soviet troops and the book stores had Soviet military magazines translated into German.

Sure they were officially different countries but there was an air of mutual distrust between the two. The Soviets were ready to quell anything on a moments notice at that time.
As far as this business in the Ukraine goes i could care less, he wants it let him have it.
 
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
One has to remember that no one really gives a [censored] about the Ukraine, what the question is is how expansionist is Putin. IE will he decide he wants next, or is this it.



Spot on. My fear is he will do something really provocative and get tensions going in a NATO Former Soviet block country. We're screwed if that happens.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d


The point of the sanctions is to punish the United States for sticking its military where it doesn't belong.




I fixed it for you.

The US has been at least as guilty of the same accusations.

Except that ethnic Russians are a majority in Eastern Ukraine..
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
One has to remember that no one really gives a [censored] about the Ukraine, what the question is is how expansionist is Putin. IE will he decide he wants next, or is this it.



Spot on. My fear is he will do something really provocative and get tensions going in a NATO Former Soviet block country. We're screwed if that happens.


As provocative as asking former Warsaw pact countries to join NATO?

"Tilting towards western Europe" inevitably means NATO membership. Ukraine appeared to tilt and Russia's sphere of influence was threatened.

Few people equate the actions of the US through history as having any relevance in creating the course of actions of others. People wonder why the Iranians accelerated nuclear research, maybe it is because we put 300000+ troops on two of their borders.
 
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Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
One has to remember that no one really gives a [censored] about the Ukraine, what the question is is how expansionist is Putin. IE will he decide he wants next, or is this it.



Spot on. My fear is he will do something really provocative and get tensions going in a NATO Former Soviet block country. We're screwed if that happens.


As provocative as asking former Warsaw pact countries to join NATO?

"Tilting towards western Europe" inevitably means NATO membership. Ukraine appeared to tilt and Russia's sphere of influence was threatened.

Few people equate the actions of the US through history as having any relevance in creating the course of actions of others. People wonder why the Iranians accelerated nuclear research, maybe it is because we put 300000+ troops on two of their borders.




The term "blowback" has great significance here.

Project for A New American Century
(PNAC)is one of THE most offensive foreign plans ever devised in the US.
 
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Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
One has to remember that no one really gives a [censored] about the Ukraine, what the question is is how expansionist is Putin. IE will he decide he wants next, or is this it.



Spot on. My fear is he will do something really provocative and get tensions going in a NATO Former Soviet block country. We're screwed if that happens.


As provocative as asking former Warsaw pact countries to join NATO?

"Tilting towards western Europe" inevitably means NATO membership. Ukraine appeared to tilt and Russia's sphere of influence was threatened.

Few people equate the actions of the US through history as having any relevance in creating the course of actions of others. People wonder why the Iranians accelerated nuclear research, maybe it is because we put 300000+ troops on two of their borders.



Oh, I agree entirely, but we certainly don't need a ground war in eastern Europe. Again...
 
Quote:

Oh, I agree entirely, but we certainly don't need a ground war in eastern Europe. Again...


US has a 50 year history of uncommitted actions regarding USSR and Russia.

Hungary, nothing....
Czechs.... nothing...
South Ossetia.... you get the picture.

David Brooks casually mentioned an effective tactic. Every oligarch's kid studying at western boarding schools and colleges should be sent home; it is really time to play dirty.
 
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
One has to remember that no one really gives a [censored] about the Ukraine, what the question is is how expansionist is Putin. IE will he decide he wants next, or is this it.



Spot on. My fear is he will do something really provocative and get tensions going in a NATO Former Soviet block country. We're screwed if that happens.


As provocative as asking former Warsaw pact countries to join NATO?

"Tilting towards western Europe" inevitably means NATO membership. Ukraine appeared to tilt and Russia's sphere of influence was threatened.

Few people equate the actions of the US through history as having any relevance in creating the course of actions of others. People wonder why the Iranians accelerated nuclear research, maybe it is because we put 300000+ troops on two of their borders.



That's OK its called diplomacy, or in Iran's case gun boat diplomacy, and any country that matters plays those games, we just happen to be very good at it.

Don't misunderstand my statement, I was making it in a purely practical diplomatic context, ie if Putin starts to threaten a country that matters; by matters I mean they are related to NATO, the EU, and US.

That's what I mean by no one cares about the Ukraine, they don't have any natural resources that I can think of off the top of my head, a booming economy that throws off lots of money, or a large industrial base, lastly they don't have any important treaty alliances.

OTOH the problem with treaty alliances as we saw in WW1 is they can have un intended consequences. They can draw large powers into conflicts over countries that don't really matter.
 
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Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I fixed it for you.

You know...

There's one thing I noticed about BITOG: No matter how acrimonious the discussions got, I never saw people editing each other's quotes to mean the opposite of what was intended. People on other forums use that childish snipe all the time, and I took it as a mark of BITOG's relative maturity that it didn't happen here, even when people were in such blind rage that they could barely form coherent thoughts.

I still think it's a tribute to BITOG that your post is the exception rather than the rule.
 
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
David Brooks casually mentioned an effective tactic. Every oligarch's kid studying at western boarding schools and colleges should be sent home; it is really time to play dirty.

LOVE this idea.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I fixed it for you.

You know...

There's one thing I noticed about BITOG: No matter how acrimonious the discussions got, I never saw people editing each other's quotes to mean the opposite of what was intended.

.


You may have a point.....
...... but I detest hypocrisy.
28.gif
 
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Everyone is a hypocrite. Literally, everyone. It's an utterly trivial aspect of human psychology and behavior. Calling someone out for being a hypocrite is like calling them out for having feet.

I think it's very telling that you weigh the US's hypocrisy more heavily than Russia's militaristic expansionism. What you're implying is that our geopolitical mistakes make it okay for Russia to be geopolitically reckless.

I guess I can't speak for you, but if I realized that I had implied such a thing, I'd be scrambling to apologize.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d


What you're implying is that our geopolitical mistakes make it okay for Russia to be geopolitically reckless.
.


Yes, and I'll tell you why there IS a difference...the US for decades has advertised itself as the most noble country on earth, and yet, it constantly does everything contrary to that supposed claim.

You really don't think that disconnect isn't recognized by other countries, nations and their own peoples? That is why the USA has a BIGGER problem when it comes to credibility. If you are going to claim a superiority you better be "better" than all the rest. If not, then the scrutiny will be of a much higher level.
 
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