Toyota pays $1.2-billion federal fine

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Toyota have been out-lawyered and appear have taken the least expensive way out.
Their choices of technology in the area of throttle control is little different from any other manufacturer. Nothing solid has been found, they have just been out-manoeuvred in the courtroom.

What you're seeing here is not about safety, it's about greed.
 
This sort of fine is intended to dissuade future conduct such as was done by Toyota. Had they not done the smoke & mirrors dance, said there was a problem, and aggressively found out why & how to fix it, they would have come out smelling like a rose.

After that CHP officer & his family got killed in that crash, there was a lot of the old it-should-not-happen-like-that-so-we-cannot-have-caused-it, "head in the sand" and circle-the-wagons stuff from Toyota.

But either a machine works properly, or it doesn't. It is intuitively obvious.
 
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Want it to stop? Then the consumer needs to stop responding to idiotic pavlovian triggers


Yes, like a snooty/upity restricted country-clubber voiceover boasting about "the relentless pursuit of perfection"??
lol.gif
 
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: d00df00d

To be fair, both Honda and Toyota have had long and nearly-unblemished histories of reliability. It's going to take more than a few years of bad apples to dislodge that reputation, just as it has taken the American car industry many years to bounce back from their own well-deserved reputation for mediocrity.

Not saying that's reasonable; just saying it's how it is.


it's all brainwashing and brand psychology. those reputations were "unblemished" as you put it due to serious PR/censorship muscle.


...and trillion$$ of bucks of relentless TV/print/net bombardment ads as well.
wink.gif
 
IIRC, there was nothing actually wrong with these cars, as was the true of the infamous Audi case of years earlier.
Had their drivers either pushed the left pedal as hard as they could, reached down and gotten the floor mat clear of the throttle pedal, turned the key switch to the off position or selected neutral, the festivities would have come to an end.
Most drivers first instinct under these conditions would be to brake hard.
Mine would be.
A couple of the buff books tried exactly that, flooring both pedals at the same time.
The brakes won every time.
Toyota error or driver error?
As with Audi, driver error every time.
 
Originally Posted By: jrustles
it's all brainwashing and brand psychology. those reputations were "unblemished" as you put it due to serious PR/censorship muscle.

Between Honda and Toyota, there has been exactly one model in the past 10-15 years that I would even consider buying for myself. I recently had the opportunity to buy a fantastic example of that car, and I passed it up with barely a second thought. If they've brainwashed me, they've done a terrible job.
wink.gif


Prior to Toyota's recent nosedive, and with the further exception of Honda's glass 5-speed autos, every single Toyota and Honda I've had personal experience with has been stone cold reliable, even under incredible abuse. Maybe that makes me the one person in the entire universe whose experience has matched the hype.
 
Originally Posted By: morepwr
Where does the money they pay in fines go? Not that I really care either way but just curious.


Well, about 53% of US households have any Federal tax liability. That is probably 75 million people (I have no idea, just a guess). I think that money should be divided up and provided to we the taxpaying people in the form of a tax rebate.
 
I don't feel Toyota are hyped up so dramatically. My 2003 Saturn ION was outlasted by numerous Toyota Corolla models that other people drove.

Sure, Toyota made some cars that sucked. The Tercel and Previa were not good, but that is a much smaller number of vehicles when compared to other companies.
 
Because, you know, cars are precision made machines. If something is off by a millimeter, then the car would explode. So, big government should do something to protect us weaklings.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
IIRC, there was nothing actually wrong with these cars [ ...]
Had their drivers [...] reached down and gotten the floor mat clear of the throttle pedal, turned the key switch to the off position or selected neutral, the festivities would have come to an end.
Most drivers first instinct under these conditions would be to brake hard.
Mine would be.
[...]
Toyota error or driver error?
As with Audi, driver error every time.


fdcg27- Toyota Error. Pretty simple, really. The floormats were not properly secured by design, causing the accelerator to stick in some situations. In a separate design problem, accelerator mechanisms could stick due to a design flaw. Both of these are SERIOUS design problems, and if you are going to try to assign personal responsibility, I'd suggest it belongs to Toyota, not the victims of their design flaws. It's all too easy, with 20/20 hindsight and all the time in the world to analyze and play armchair-driver AFTER the cause has been determined, to say "oh yes, the floormat, they should've just moved it out of the way". If you've never heard of the floormat problem before (as was the case with the victims), I'm going to guess your reaction would be very different and much slower. Also turning a key is easy, but how about pushbutton start? To those in the transitionary period from key turn to pushbutton, they may not know to hold down the start button to emergency power-off. Again, 20-20 hindsight is easy as pie. Walking in their shoes in their circumstances, not so much. Shifting into neutral is the only one of your solutions that holds, though even on that one, turning a dial to shift isn't quite the same feeling when you're in the cockpit, especially in an emergency situation (not sure what type of shifter the vehicle(s) had.

I'm not sure how you can defend Toyota when they knew the problem existed in other models not ID'd for the floormat fix, volume-sellers like the Corolla, which Toyota now admits they KNEW had the very same problem, but which they chose not to fix. I guess playing armchair-driver is easier than admitting Toyota messed up- BIGTIME.
 
Originally Posted By: wallyuwl
don't trust Toyota, and haven't even looked at their options for our soon-to-be-purchased new vehicle.


wallyuwul- do you trust GM? Why or why not?
 
Originally Posted By: accent2012
If something is off by a millimeter, then the car would explode. So, big government should do something to protect us weaklings.


Off by a millimeter? How about if 2 design flaws can cause the accelerator pedal to stick, and the vehicle manufacturer knows of these issues but only partially addresses them, then big gov't should intervene? Sounds a lot more reasonable when you tell the whole story vs. your laughable hyperbole.
 
Originally Posted By: dishdude
When you produce as many vehicles as GM and Toyota, some mistakes and design flaws are bound to happen. The bashing isn't necessary.


You seem to have missed the point entirely. They lied to cover up their mistakes. Mistakes happen. Lies don't.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: jrustles
it's all brainwashing and brand psychology. those reputations were "unblemished" as you put it due to serious PR/censorship muscle.

Between Honda and Toyota, there has been exactly one model in the past 10-15 years that I would even consider buying for myself. I recently had the opportunity to buy a fantastic example of that car, and I passed it up with barely a second thought. If they've brainwashed me, they've done a terrible job.
wink.gif


Prior to Toyota's recent nosedive, and with the further exception of Honda's glass 5-speed autos, every single Toyota and Honda I've had personal experience with has been stone cold reliable, even under incredible abuse. Maybe that makes me the one person in the entire universe whose experience has matched the hype.


When I sold parts I sold just as many for Toyota and Honda as I did the Big 3. Their "superior reliability" is definitely a myth. Now that isn't saying they are unreliable nor that owner's have not had good luck with them but rather they are no where near as good as the mag's and loyal owner's make them out to be. Usually costs a lot more to fix them as well.
 
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Originally Posted By: Hermann
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Nice.
Now, how much GM should pay then.


Looks like GM is on the hook for $30-$60 billion, if they have to pay the same amount per death. Looks like bailout time again.


Apparently GM didn't lie about the problems like Toyota, but who knows.


That's hilarious! If you believe that, the missing plane landed in Florida...
 
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: jrustles
it's all brainwashing and brand psychology. those reputations were "unblemished" as you put it due to serious PR/censorship muscle.

Between Honda and Toyota, there has been exactly one model in the past 10-15 years that I would even consider buying for myself. I recently had the opportunity to buy a fantastic example of that car, and I passed it up with barely a second thought. If they've brainwashed me, they've done a terrible job.
wink.gif


Prior to Toyota's recent nosedive, and with the further exception of Honda's glass 5-speed autos, every single Toyota and Honda I've had personal experience with has been stone cold reliable, even under incredible abuse. Maybe that makes me the one person in the entire universe whose experience has matched the hype.


When I sold parts I sold just as many for Toyota and Honda as I did the Big 3. Their "superior reliability" is definitely a myth. Now that isn't saying they are unreliable nor that owner's have not had good luck with them but rather they are no where near as good as the mag's and loyal owner's make them out to be. Usually costs a lot more to fix them as well.


At least their engines don't have to be replaced at 60K miles...
 
Originally Posted By: Number21
Originally Posted By: dishdude
When you produce as many vehicles as GM and Toyota, some mistakes and design flaws are bound to happen. The bashing isn't necessary.


You seem to have missed the point entirely. They lied to cover up their mistakes. Mistakes happen. Lies don't.


You can name anything Toyota is guilty of and the big 3 are guilty of the same 10 fold...
 
I'm pretty sure they are all shrewd at the very least.

The key here is that TOYOTA LIED and knew the issue approximately TWO years before the famous 911 call & crash (where a family DIED).
 
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