Engine Noise From Synthetic Oil - Does It Do Damag

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First of oil film thickness isn't as relevant as oil film strength. So a thinner film can be stronger than a thicker oil film even though the thicker film will mask more noise.
I don't know where you get this stuff from but one has nothing to do with another.
You know some varnish will dampen sound eh,so maybe you're engines aren't noisy because of the thick skin of varnish on the top end. [/quote]
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Merkava_4 said:
Why do we oil a door hinge or a bicycle chain? Because it's noisy.

The sound of good lubrication is no sound.



So Clevy, are you saying that from all that graph and scientific stuff posted earlier that the oil film thickness (or lack thereof) is what causes Mobil 1 oil to allow me engine sound, especially during start-ups? And that although the oil film that is on the pistons prior to start is thin, it is actually stronger than conventional oil? So that although the engine makes more noise, it is still actually being protected MORE than a quieter sounding engine with dino oil? Have I got this correct?
 
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Originally Posted By: Verminator
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Why do we oil a door hinge or a bicycle chain? Because it's noisy.

The sound of good lubrication is no sound.


And this is exactly what concerns me! It's hard for me to accept that Mobil 1 5W30 causes a great deal more engine noise, yet that noise is not caused from moving parts that appear not to be lubricated properly...even though I'm told the science behind it says the parts ARE being properly lubricated...



Oil film strength is the important fact to consider,not oil film thickness.
A thicker oil film will insulate more which means less sound transfer from rockers to the atmosphere however a thicker oil film doesn't equate to a stronger oil film.
I used to feel the same way. I swore up and down that more noise equates to more wear until I saw an eagle talon engine get torn apart.
The owner was my friend,he bought it new,used M1 exclusively and the engine had valve clatter so bad I thought it was broken.
We took it apart because he sent a rod through the block however the cams,valves,the entire head looked brand new without any wear scar on the cams whatsoever with 250k on the engine,130k running more boost and dyno tuned spraying meth to cool the intake charge.
So more noise doesn't mean more wear.
And his intake was spotless including the intake valves and the exhaust. Spraying windshield washer fluid keeps it spotless.
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy


Oil film strength is the important fact to consider,not oil film thickness.
A thicker oil film will insulate more which means less sound transfer from rockers to the atmosphere however a thicker oil film doesn't equate to a stronger oil film.
I used to feel the same way. I swore up and down that more noise equates to more wear until I saw an eagle talon engine get torn apart.
The owner was my friend,he bought it new,used M1 exclusively and the engine had valve clatter so bad I thought it was broken.
We took it apart because he sent a rod through the block however the cams,valves,the entire head looked brand new without any wear scar on the cams whatsoever with 250k on the engine,130k running more boost and dyno tuned spraying meth to cool the intake charge.
So more noise doesn't mean more wear.
And his intake was spotless including the intake valves and the exhaust. Spraying windshield washer fluid keeps it spotless.


Everything I put in bold I disagree with.
 
Film strength is not totally dependent on viscosity although it does have a very large part. Other factors such as the molecule structure of the fluid plays a role. Such as if the molecular structure is more uniformed and consistent the fluid will have a higher film strength of another fluid in the same viscosity.

That is why I am certain the "noisy" Mobil One provides more than sufficient "protection". If you are using the same grade of oil as before from a respected blender in its "synthetic" form you may believe you are hearing noises. But your engine is not "less" protective. Automotive engines like to play tricks on us I believe and I think they get a kick out of it.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: Clevy


Oil film strength is the important fact to consider,not oil film thickness.
A thicker oil film will insulate more which means less sound transfer from rockers to the atmosphere however a thicker oil film doesn't equate to a stronger oil film.
I used to feel the same way. I swore up and down that more noise equates to more wear until I saw an eagle talon engine get torn apart.
The owner was my friend,he bought it new,used M1 exclusively and the engine had valve clatter so bad I thought it was broken.
We took it apart because he sent a rod through the block however the cams,valves,the entire head looked brand new without any wear scar on the cams whatsoever with 250k on the engine,130k running more boost and dyno tuned spraying meth to cool the intake charge.
So more noise doesn't mean more wear.
And his intake was spotless including the intake valves and the exhaust. Spraying windshield washer fluid keeps it spotless.


Everything I put in bold I disagree with.


Don't worry I believe I answered it in terms you can understand.
 
Originally Posted By: Verminator
So Merkava_4 you are in disagreement then with the noise issue? You believe that more noise = more wear?


Verminator

Go to his profile and click on the "read members posts"

Read over some of the stuff he writes,then decide if you trust him for advice. He's got some very strange beliefs,many flabbergasted me to the point I'm speechless,so try to remember the advice is worth what you paid for it.
 
Originally Posted By: Verminator
So Merkava_4 you are in disagreement then with the noise issue? You believe that more noise = more wear?


I believe noise = metal to metal contact which = more wear. Yes.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
I believe noise = metal to metal contact which = more wear. Yes.

Is this why we see all this massive wear on M1 UOAs and all those poor engines filled with M1 blown up on the side of the road?
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

Is this why we see all this massive wear on M1 UOAs and all those poor engines filled with M1 blown up on the side of the road?


Yes.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: Verminator
So Merkava_4 you are in disagreement then with the noise issue? You believe that more noise = more wear?


I believe noise = metal to metal contact which = more wear. Yes.



What part is so hard for you to understand merkava.
The anti-wear layer is present so in all truth that limits metal on metal.
Then the rest of the oils additive package comes into action which increases the oils film strength.
Film thickness is really irrelevant,and its that thickness that dampens noise.
Film strength is the critical factor and if the oil film is only a molecule or 2 thick but its strong enough to keep the parts from touching then that's perfect however a layer a molecule or 2 thick really isn't going to do much for noise,hence many people's observations that synthetic oils are noisier.
They don't need to be as thick to work and because the oil film is thinner there's less parasitic loss.
I don't understand why you refuse to absorb anything here merkava. It's as if you only post yesterday's wives tales,which you seem to believe and you just look away when data is provided proving your points and beliefs aren't applicable yet the very next day your posting the exact same stuff that you were shown to be incorrect the day before.
Insanity: repeating the same actions over and over a fan expecting different results.
I don't understand why you refuse yo learn anything. It's as if you only absorb questionable factoids that back up your position, no matter how absurd.
Take varnish for example. Unless its thick enough to scrape off then its harmless,except potentially in vvt and cylinder deactivation systems and those type engines have an oem spec to follow.
On a simple pushrod engine varnish is harmless yet you sound an alarm at any used oil analysis over 5000 miles and claim the engines got varnish.
I just don't understand why your here if its not to learn.
I'm here to learn and potentially help, and I find that most of the time the posts are informative and entertaining,why are you here if you're choosing to ignore data and you keep pushing proven incorrect information.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: Verminator
So Merkava_4 you are in disagreement then with the noise issue? You believe that more noise = more wear?


I believe noise = metal to metal contact which = more wear. Yes.


This is true only if the oil film thickness is less than required b/w the metal-metal parts. Thinner oil will have less noise dampening effect hence more noise is possible but it does not necessarily mean the wear is increased.
 
Something else I`ve noticed when I`ve experienced a "noisy" oil,is that wot acceleration and upper rpm powerband response is not as smooth.
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Something else I`ve noticed when I`ve experienced a "noisy" oil,is that wot acceleration and upper rpm powerband response is not as smooth.


Yes, I have noticed this too...
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy

I don't understand why you refuse yo learn anything.


And at the same time, I can't understand why you insist on making something so complicated out of something so simple.

10W-30, 10W-40, and 20W-50 all have the same film strength. What makes one lubricate better then the other in a specific engine is that one of them is able to fill in the space between [Surface A] and [Surface B].

Rotating engine assemblies don't have variable clearances between moving parts - they have a set margin.

An engine oil needs to be thin enough to squeeze into the space between [Surface A] and [Surface B], but once it gets in there, it needs to be thick enough to fill in the space so that [Surface A] and [Surface B] don't come in contact with each other. That's why 20W-50 maybe too thick to squeeze into the space, and yet 10W-30 maybe too thin to fill in the space once it gets in there. That's why 10W-40 is just right for that engine because it's thin enough to squeeze into the space, yet still thick enough to keep [Surface A] and [Surface B] separated.
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: tig1
Why do you guys hate XM? I hear you say it but no explaination.
Years ago I was an M1 fanboy. Then I got caught up in the whole basestock debacle,then the castrol hearings...and I didn't like that they cheapened the basestocks after the castrol thing but the cost to the consumer didn't change so I just decided that's it,no more Mobil.
That's pretty much my reasoning as well. My problems with ExMo are the way they do business, not the quality of the oil. If M1 was clearly the best choice I would use it, but there are plenty of other equally good oils, so I choose to use one of them.

Also, I did not subscribe to the "M1 is noisy oil" platform until I used it in my DD last fall. I had a jug left over from a previous project years ago and decided to use it up in my DD. Not even thinking about the potential noise issue, I noticed immediately that the engine sounded different...kind of a "sewing-machine" sound that was not there before. I currently have a jug of my favourite MC ready to go in for the spring, so I will see if anything changes.

Regardless of the outcome of the noise question, I am not concerned in the least that M1 is causing more wear. It has an excellent reputation for a reason.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: Clevy

I don't understand why you refuse yo learn anything.


And at the same time, I can't understand why you insist on making something so complicated out of something so simple.

10W-30, 10W-40, and 20W-50 all have the same film strength. What makes one lubricate better then the other in a specific engine is that one of them is able to fill in the space between [Surface A] and [Surface B].

Rotating engine assemblies don't have variable clearances between moving parts - they have a set margin.

An engine oil needs to be thin enough to squeeze into the space between [Surface A] and [Surface B], but once it gets in there, it needs to be thick enough to fill in the space so that [Surface A] and [Surface B] don't come in contact with each other. That's why 20W-50 maybe too thick to squeeze into the space, and yet 10W-30 maybe too thin to fill in the space once it gets in there. That's why 10W-40 is just right for that engine because it's thin enough to squeeze into the space, yet still thick enough to keep [Surface A] and [Surface B] separated.


Exactly where is this action happening in an engine. The whole analogy doesn't apply.
A bearing might be close to this analogy however bearings aren't picky about oil. Once they get spinning fast most any oil will keep it separated and help cool it.
As far as squeezing into spots what are you talking about.
Are you aware an engine requires different types of lubrication.
Boundary for instance,then hydrodynamic(bearings) so what exactly are you trying to explain,and how does that explanation work into your belief that more noise equals more wear.
 
Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: tig1
Why do you guys hate XM? I hear you say it but no explaination.
Years ago I was an M1 fanboy. Then I got caught up in the whole basestock debacle,then the castrol hearings...and I didn't like that they cheapened the basestocks after the castrol thing but the cost to the consumer didn't change so I just decided that's it,no more Mobil.
That's pretty much my reasoning as well. My problems with ExMo are the way they do business, not the quality of the oil. If M1 was clearly the best choice I would use it, but there are plenty of other equally good oils, so I choose to use one of them.

Also, I did not subscribe to the "M1 is noisy oil" platform until I used it in my DD last fall. I had a jug left over from a previous project years ago and decided to use it up in my DD. Not even thinking about the potential noise issue, I noticed immediately that the engine sounded different...kind of a "sewing-machine" sound that was not there before. I currently have a jug of my favourite MC ready to go in for the spring, so I will see if anything changes.

Regardless of the outcome of the noise question, I am not concerned in the least that M1 is causing more wear. It has an excellent reputation for a reason.


I agree with you. Even though most any engine I've used m1 in made more noise than the previous oil I have seen engines torn down that used M1 exclusively,that had so much valve clatter I thought it was broken yet upon tear down there was no visible nor measurable wear. Not even a wear scar on the cam.
So to finish more noise doesn't mean more wear,no matter what merkava thinks or believes.
 
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