2012 Honda Accord V6 M1 0w20 5,000 miles

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: Trav

This is from an 05 with verified 7500 mi OCI with synthetic.

That engine is done. No point in changing the oil anymore in that engine.

 

[Indydriver]

More musings on the dreaded cylinder deactivation scheme....

VCM does give Honda an all important edge in the mpg game. They have a 15% advantage (that's a lot folks) in minivans for example. This [censored] "technology" is a response to one stimulus: CAFE standards. It is deplorable that government regulation forces automobile engineers to create designs they would otherwise abhor. It is interesting to me to see which of their competitors have taken the bait.

Toyota hasn't (yet). My wife insists on continuing to drive minivans even though our children are grown. We never considered the otherwise very fine Odyssey because they all come with VCM. We bought a Toyota Sienna despite the mpg disadvantage because we knew it didn't have VCM and in fact has a wonderful drivetrain featuring a normal and powerful six cylinder mated to an equally fine six speed auto trans. Great vehicle, highly recommended. [BTW 10,000 mile factory recommended OCIs on 0W-20 with no OLM!]

I am in the process of buying a new Camaro V8 and guess what? GM has taken the bait implementing their version of cylinder deactivation called AFM. Fortunately, they do NOT deploy it on manual trans LS3s which I prefer anyway. Apparently the new kids in charge of GM don't remember the first dismal failure of cylinder deact in the Cadillac line in the 80's that cost them millions.

History repeating itself. Sad. We will see if GM's computers are any smarter than Honda's. I doubt it.

 

[Indydriver]

Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Back to my daughter's 2011....given all this, I chose to follow and document factory recommendations to a Tee. So, we kept the FF in there until 10% which turned out to be about 6500 miles (my daughter drives 95% city, an important factor in this whole mess). The UOA, while heavily contaminated with break-in metals (starring 250+ of CU) still had acceptable TBN. The elevated moly from the piston skirt coatings was duly noted. I even purchased Honda brand full syn 0W-20 for my replacement oil to ensure Honda had no outs if we develop problems. The second OCI was again performed by me at 10% which again was around 6500 miles. As you would expect, metals were coming down and the TBN remained serviceable. Most importantly, the engine burned zero oil in these first 13,000 miles. During the second fill with Honda Genuine, we have begun to see some oil consumption I deem "normal" at about half a quart over 7000 miles. Interestingly, she used the car more on the highway during this time. I switched oil on the next (and current) fill to some SM TGMO hoping that it's unusually high moly content might give some added protection to this engine. That will be due to come out soon and you can bet I'll be getting that tested too.

Good morning and Thanks for yet another great writeup here!
So if we summarize the FIX to be able to safely avoid the VCM and non-VCM honda engine troubles being discussed in this post, the fix you have identified is "to use high moly oils and simply top-up the engine oil even if just 50 ml is required, regularly and frequently" and definitely run the FF up to 10% of MM. Is this correct ?

My advice is:

1. Avoid Honda altogether. In addition to their design flaws, they have proven to many loyal customers that they will stiff any customer to save a buck.
2. If #1 isn't possible, follow Honda's recommendations precisely and document it so that you cannot be denied warranty coverage should you need it. So if Honda says follow the MM, follow the MM and be sure you use the recommended oil type.
3. Above all, check your oil level frequently. After all, running out is much worse than using the wrong weight or conventional instead of syn. As noted by an earlier poster, all 0W-20s are either full or semi-syns.

 

[Indydriver]

On the moly issue, I'm not qualified to tell you if it helps or not. I had some high moly oil in my stash and thought it logical to use it given Honda's desire to have it present in their FF. I would not recommend additives as that would violate Honda's recommendations.

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: Indydriver
On the moly issue, I'm not qualified to tell you if it helps or not. I had some high moly oil in my stash and thought it logical to use it given Honda's desire to have it present in their FF. I would not recommend additives as that would violate Honda's recommendations.

Thanks again!

 

[fonecord2]

Would auto rx help this engine?

 

[Vikas]

At the risk of incurring Trav's warth, I am going to ask explanation of the following statement:-

Quote:
verified 7500 mi OCI with synthetic.


- what verification?
- which synthetic oil

To the best of my knowledge, the vehicle was not driven by Trav himself nor was it serviced every 7500 miles on Mobil-1 by Trav himself. I apologize in advance if that is false. We have the proof of the sludge right here. Where is the proof of the regular 7500 synthetic OCIs? Was it presented?

There no way that an engine would be that sludged with 7500 OCI and would remain that spotless with 5000 OCI. That does not sound reasonable.

 

[GarrettRay]

Originally Posted By: Chris B.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Anecdotal blathering is not evidence nor data that can be understood statistically.

Show me how you (or any other Honda VCM owner) have determined safely and statistically that 5k miles is the correct mileage limit, and how you attribute that limit directly to the use of synthetic, please. How do you know 5k miles isn't "too far" as well? Or not far enough? Why 5k miles? Are you 100% sure that 5k miles isn't too much? Perhaps you should consider every 3k miles or 3 months; you know, like the good ol' days. You can double-down on the "extra cheap insurance".

Your data suggests nothing substantial came for your effort except gross waste, despite what anyone tells you to comfort your predisposed lube bigotry. I think it's clear what your want, and there's nothing wrong with that, for you. But some of us actually use data and facts to make reasoned, rational decisions. For us, there's more to an OCI then just guessing.

If you're going to dump M1 every 5k miles, then why even bother with the UOAs? If you started to have a problem, would you even know how to distinguish it in the UOA, versus standard deviation shifts? Right now, this is telling you that M1 did nothing special, and yet you continue to ignore the very data you paid for. So why is it you would have any faith in the UOA should it indicate something were wrong? You don't seem to trust it to be right; why trust it if something were askew? The UOA is telling you that you wasted money, but your emotion is telling you otherwise.

Again - what five markers are you looking for, what averages do you believe to be sound, what deviation is typical, and how are you setting condemnation limits? If you are not addressing these, you're just guessing your way through the entire thing. And of these "problems" you're trying to avoid, can you definitively describe the issues, and how they are cause by oil use and selection? Is there a limit where a conventional lube would be OK? What is the upper end to the use of syns? What symptoms manifest that indicate a problem is present?

You run M1 for 5k miles; I presume you have no issues to date so far. But that's just correlation and nothing more. You have not convinced me that your plan is attributable to safe operation. Let's expound on your logic here:
1) you use syn for 5k miles
2) you have no issues so far
3) you presume your engine is safe because of your actions

I can do that too ...
1) we have three outdoor cats at home
2) we have no wild bears roaming in central Indiana
3) I presume the cats are keeping the bears away

Maybe I should get a few more cats, just for cheap insurance ...

Don't confuse correlation with causation, sir. You have not shown me any proof that you have any data to use for rational decisions about your OCI or lube selection.

Whether you like it or not, you're not only wasting money on the lube, but also on the information you paid to ignore. Maybe that is your idea of "cheap insurance", but where I come from, it's called massive waste.

It's clear to me you have no interest in using the products you purchase as anything other than toys. Fine by me. I wish you the best.


5,000 miles on conventional has proven to be a bad match for this engine. As I have said before and have posted, this engine sludges and had early failures using the MM on dino oil. In many cases at 7,500 miles on syn, this engine has problems. At 5,000 miles on syn there has been no reports of problems.
Now none of this was done in a "lab setting" backed by controlled tests that take years and costs millions of dollars to conduct. It was determined by people like me and other forum members real world findings on what is really working in these engines better then what the factory MM recommends.

Tracking wear trends with UOA's can help when you do end up with a problem. I have on a couple different accounts, identified engine problems and fixed them before they became a bigger problem. The UOA's more then paid for themselves in these cases so not really wasting money here. Not many on here are scientists or tribologists and this is just a hobby for most on here so are we all wasting money? There is a lot to be learned from everyone posting their findings and the VCM engines needing short Syn OCI's is one of them. Why don't you PROOVE I'm wrong??? You can't just as I can't answer all you questions so don't even try.

Your cat scenario is your logic not mine and it quite silly. I know for a fact my engine is well protected because the UOA shows low wear and a clean report based on all reports on this engine. All the "proof and data" you want and keep asking for is spread out on the internet. It is not in the form you want. It is in the real world findings of people like Trav and the countless Honda V6 owners who talk and share "data" about what they are finding in every day use.
You are the one who is getting "emotional" Sir. Worrying about "massive waste" and getting all bent out of shape over changing M1 early LOL! I just posted a UOA to share with the forum, I'm done talking to you. You remind me of the type of person who is super book smart but doesn't have enough common sense to figure out how to hold the door open for a pretty girl or how to properly tie their shoes. The rest of us can keep swapping UOA's and figuring out how to keep our engines protected and running better.....

I just got done working a 16 hour day to help pay for all the free loaders in this country so forgive my grammar and punctuation. LOL! Good nite all.


You're wasting your time Chris. I am new here, and have VERY quickly learned that this entire site is a clique full of bullies, like dnewton and a host of others. I think they just like picking on people for the fun of it. I have asked my account to be deleted, and am waiting for confirmation. I really hate people that go to the extreme at finding something to bash others over the head with. ZERO professionalism. It's completely up to the owner to decide how long they leave their oil in, change their wiper blades, buy new tires, etc., etc. You were not in ANY way advocating in your OP when other people should do this. Why others would beat you up over it is nothing short of someone looking for an excuse to bully you around. Good job defending yourself though!