Propane shortage?

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Originally Posted By: KD0AXS
Yep, there's no natural gas service where I live, so most homes around here use propane.


To tell you the truth, I have no idea where the power company keeps their natural gas storage tanks.

All I know is it comes out of the ground and goes to a meter before coming into my house.
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Wait a minute, I seem to remember a thread a couple weeks ago where a picture was posted of a major traffic pile up. Smack in the middle of the mess was a propane tanker and people were all bent out of shape because trucks carrying hazardous materials were allowed to be on the road during inclement weather. Could you imagine how bad this shortage would be if propane suppliers were forced to park their trucks every time it snowed?
 
Prices are now over $5/gallon. We're supposed to be getting our ration of 200 gallons sometime this week, but that's if they don't run out first. We have the thermostat set to 60 and the water heater down as low as it goes, and 4 electric space heaters going.

The MIL offered us her wood stove that's sitting unused at her cabin, but that's 125 miles away. Plus, I'd have to get a permit, install it, get it inspected, and pay higher insurance premiums.
 
I got a delivery yesterday and it was $4.77 per gallon....up $2.71 per gallon from our last delivery in July '13. I can't lower the thermostat any more or I'll face a mutiny.

I also noticed diesel fuel was $0.27 per gallon more expensive in Pa than Md.

Yup....greed!
 
It takes a huge amount of propane to dry corn for storage, especially this year...but are they using propane to dry the same corn they use for producing ethanol fuels?
 
In Illinois we didn't have a wet year. 2nd largest corn growers. Most of this shortage in manufactured IMHO.
 
Originally Posted By: Fleetmon

I also noticed diesel fuel was $0.27 per gallon more expensive in Pa than Md.

Yup....greed!


That's because the PA Legislature sold us out and raised the gas/diesel taxes on 1/1/14 under the guise of road improvement. Rather than look at fraud and waste it is easier to just jack up taxes.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I really don't understand why more people don't have a woodstove though.
$3k installed, lasts forever, no major maintenance required, fuel grows on trees, needs no power, fuel storage for a year require no infrastructure, no price manipulation [censored], no taxes paid on the fuel(usually). Most people need the exercise of moving wood, or even processing if they want a real workout.


It's because most people are horribly lazy. That and where I live space is an issue (as in I would have no place to store the pellets).
 
I'm glad more people don't have woodstoves. While I think about one at times, I'm always reminded of my allergies when I wind up downwind of the neighbor's chimney .
 
What would one do if they want to go to Florida for two weeks and the weather gets cold as it is now? How would they keep the pipes from freezing?
 
If it was me I would fill them with RV antifreeze.

In sprinkler systems exposed to freezing they charge them with air.

If you ever hit a sprinkler head and hear the air coming out you better run or get drowned. Don ask.
 
For an explanation of why propane prices are so high, the energy information administration offers a decent explanation.

http://www.eia.gov/oog/info/twip/twiparch/2014/140115/twipprint.html

The corn drying issue is not made up, contrary to the poster from Illinois. While the record corn crops in Illinois may not have needed drying, the corn crop in Minnesota, much of Iowa, Nebraska, and Wisconsin all required extensive drying this fall due to an extremely late crop this year. For what its worth, the usual top four corn producers are Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, and Nebraska. Three of the four big four corn crops required extensive drying.

And yes, much of that corn that was dried will be used for ethanol production.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Originally Posted By: IndyIan

OT
I really don't understand why more people don't have a woodstove though.
$3k installed, lasts forever, no major maintenance required, fuel grows on trees, needs no power, fuel storage for a year require no infrastructure, no price manipulation [censored], no taxes paid on the fuel(usually). Most people need the exercise of moving wood, or even processing if they want a real workout.


$3,000 gets me almost 5 years worth of propane. Add to that the purchase cost of the wood at $150-$200 per cord times about 4 cords per winter = $600-$800/year. Then I have to rig up a dry place to store it (let's say $200 worth of building materials and we'll amortize it over the 5 year period mentioned above).

So in the 5 year period mentioned above it will cost me between $1,840 and $2,040 each year, where I currently pay $700-$800/year for fuel.

There's also my time which has value. I have no desire to trudge out a couple times a day and get wood to stoke the fire and spend the time keeping the fire going. We also have a fairly large 4,200 square foot house, and a wood stove at one end means extremely cold temperatures at the other end of the house and in the basement unless we rig up a bunch of box fans. No thanks.

There's also the stink of burning wood, which I don't care for and don't want in the house. And my current HVAC system also filters and humidifies the air, which burning wood in a wood stove can't do.

There's also the insurance rate increase with burning wood because it's a higher risk for fire.

So maybe now you'll understand why many of us don't burn wood for winter heat. Unless you have access to cheap or free firewood it doesn't make sense, and even then it may not be desirable.


I suspect you don't really care if propane is $6/gal, that's fine, but many people do care about the price.
Also a modern wood stove doesn't release smoke inside the house and if you are burning properly you will barely notice it outside.
We have a pretty optimal land and house set up for wood burning so it works quite well as our main heat source, and it takes all of 5 minutes to bring in 2 arm loads and load the stove 3 times a day.
As a backup/alternative heat source I think its pretty hard to beat for many people, but it requires some manual skills, knowledge, planning, and some physical work which I guess makes it a "waste of time" for many.
I like doing it though, its fun to run the saw, and falling trees well is satisfying, as you are sort of making something from nothing even if you are just collecting wood from a friend in town when they need to have a tree taken down.
Its probably my only hobby that pays quite well too as our propane is always around $2.50/gal.

I also love the smell of a woodstove operating!
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
We sized our tank to last the winter as delivery could be an issue with a 2wd propane truck on our driveway, but we don't go through that much.

OT
I really don't understand why more people don't have a woodstove though.
$3k installed, lasts forever, no major maintenance required, fuel grows on trees, needs no power, fuel storage for a year require no infrastructure, no price manipulation [censored], no taxes paid on the fuel(usually). Most people need the exercise of moving wood, or even processing if they want a real workout.


If I was from or near Canada where there where trees I might not understand either.
 
Luckily, we got our 200 gallons yesterday. Chances are that has to last us the rest of the winter so we still have to keep the heat turned down and use space heaters to keep the furnace from running as much as possible.

Putting in a wood stove isn't going to be as simple as we hoped. After talking to our insurance agent, if we put in a wood stove it must be a model that carries UL approval and must be installed by a licensed contractor. That means the onethat the MIL offered us is out. On the plus side, it will only raise our rates by $40 a year. We've been looking at a couple local fireplace stores and it's probably going be in the $4-5K range for a stove with installation. Seems like it's well worth it when I can get wood for nothing but my time and gas to go get it, cut, and split it. As of right now, it would cost us $3,000 for a full tank of propane, which wouldn't even last a full winter, and we can't even get that much even if we wanted to.
 
Central Illinois:

Propane = $5.65 a gallon
Electricity = less than 5 cents a kilowatt.

Hmmmm....

The next house I build, I might seriously consider installing some baseboard heat in a few rooms as a supplemental source of heat for situations like this.
 
Originally Posted By: KD0AXS
As of right now, it would cost us $3,000 for a full tank of propane, which wouldn't even last a full winter, and we can't even get that much even if we wanted to.


holy swear word that is big bucks for heating! I have lost all rights to complain when my monthly gas bill breaks into the hundreds this time of year.
 
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