Upper cylinder lube vs. oil additives

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Originally Posted By: Shannow
A bit like this kit...
http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-...rom=60402#Cross

I made a "T" piece out of brass tubing that fit in the PCV line to the Q-Jet, and fitted the oiler kit...worked on the premise that the carb manifold would be careful to distribute PCV fumes more evenly tan a hole drilled in the manifold.

You "tune" it to the number of drops per minute of UCL (flashlube is a lead replacement additive, we only lost lead in 1990ish, having unleaded and low lead since 1987).

Lubricates only while there is vacuum across the throttle plate, but that's most times in a car's life.


That's exactly how my MMO Inverse Oiler works. A Tee fitting plumbed into the PCV vacuum line, dial in how many drips per minute you want it to feed and your gtg. It should consume about 1 qt. per 1,000 miles. It can also be set up on stationary engines or any engine that produces vacuum.

There are copies of it out there IIRC they all work the same way.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Why no feasible way? I can't imagine an engine on which an oiler could not be installed. And, you could always add a UCL to the fuel tank, although that might be unlikely for a taxi.

My fleet was on propane for most years, so dumping a little 2 cycle oil into the fuel tank wasn't an option.
wink.gif


Propane taxis were very common here at one time given how cheap the fuel was at the time.


Right, you can't easily dump an upper cylinder lube into a pressurized propane gas tank. But you could install a lubricator. All you need is a vacuum tap, preferably beyond the throttle body.

Propane conversions are normally done by professional shops on engines originally designed to run on gasoline. I'm surprised an oiler wasn't installed as part of the conversion. By comparison to propane, gasoline seem absolutely oily. When a UCL is used in a propane/cng conversion, the dosage rate can be very low.

You raised a good point that I had forgotten about - propane is really cheap. Our local gas-electric utility ran its vehicles on propane and operating economy was probably a big motivation. The $2000-4000 cost of a propane conversion would pay for itself in just a few years.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
A bit like this kit...
http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-...rom=60402#Cross

I made a "T" piece out of brass tubing that fit in the PCV line to the Q-Jet, and fitted the oiler kit...worked on the premise that the carb manifold would be careful to distribute PCV fumes more evenly tan a hole drilled in the manifold.

You "tune" it to the number of drops per minute of UCL (flashlube is a lead replacement additive, we only lost lead in 1990ish, having unleaded and low lead since 1987).

An ideal way to insert a UCL is to drip it into the center of the air/fuel stream. Marvel and other oiler/lubricator makers made installation kits to accomplish this task for popular engines and carburetors.

oiler_install_kit.jpg

This particular kit is just a throttle body spacer (silver piece, top of picture) with a small tube inserted - it appears to be soldered in. It drips the oil down two of the carburetor barrels. But less-than-perfect installations work quite well, such as using the PCV tap. The oil vaporizes in the manifold turbulence.

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Lubricates only while there is vacuum across the throttle plate, but that's most times in a car's life.

Most lubricators 'sense' the vacuum level because they are designed to insert oil inversely to the vacuum level. So, a heavily loaded engine - wide open throttle - gets more oil than just cruising down the boulevard. And, when the vacuum is very high - coasting down a hill on closed throttle - almost no UCL goes in. If you simply put the UCL into the gas tank, you get some of this variable rate benefit since more fuel is consumed with a wide open throttle. But a mechanical oiler can greatly accelerate this rate of oil input gain.

The UCL actually gets sucked into the engine based on Bernouli's Principle. So oilers work fine on turbo- or super-charged engines, because there is always air/fuel flowing into the engine, regardless of vacuum or pressure in the manifold. The tip of the UCL input point basically works like a unsealed Pitot tube.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Ford's Modular engine seems to do just fine racking up obscene mileage without a UCL.


There are certainly many high-mileage ones out there.

I find it rather interesting though to park my idling, 225,00 mile F-150 farm truck next to another of the same vintage -- with the standard dosage of 1oz/5gal TC-W3, it's noticeably quieter in comparison.
 
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Ford's Modular engine seems to do just fine racking up obscene mileage without a UCL.


There are certainly many high-mileage ones out there.

I find it rather interesting though to park my idling, 225,00 mile F-150 farm truck next to another of the same vintage -- with the standard dosage of 1oz/5gal TC-W3, it's noticeably quieter in comparison.


Perhaps you've just looked after it better
21.gif


Both our 5.4L's are extremely quiet. The one (my dad's) has had a steady diet of M1 since pretty much new. Mine currently has an exhaust leak. Again. Bloody manifolds
mad.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Finz
Originally Posted By: Clevy
As far as upper cylinder lubes go I cannot say for sure whether they affect wear in any measurable way however I still use tc-w3 in my fuel just in case. It costs pennies to treat a tankful and hasn't hurt yet. I've never had a fouled plug or anything.
Tc-w3 has detergents in it and because it's an oil it may help fuel pumps and rubber seals exposed to the drying effects of ethanol.
Either way its cheap and in my mind its not hurting anything.


+1
+1 again
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet
I hate to admit it, but I tried MMO in the gas in my 2003 Jaguar X-Type 2.5L V6. I was experiencing a rough idle and started thinking about poor valve sealing, sticky rings, balky injectors and so on. Considering that MMO has been known to help in such matters, I tried it. Success!

I added nearly a quart of the stuff to a 15 gallon tank. The engine was nearly instantly smooth. And, it clearly remains so many tanks later.
+1 on that, still my fav....
What happened? I really don't know. And, while I prefer scientific methodology and reasoning over "old wives tales", I can only speculate on the reasons why it worked. I will refrain from doing so.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
[ Mine currently has an exhaust leak. Again. Bloody manifolds
mad.gif



Same side? I used aftermarket ones or Gibson shorty SS headers on a few of these and they didn't rust anywhere near like the OEM, the SS not at all.
Did they use the new Ford SS studs?

I always do both sides on these, one almost always follows the other, plus the drivers side is a lot easier.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
[ Mine currently has an exhaust leak. Again. Bloody manifolds
mad.gif



Same side? I used aftermarket ones or Gibson shorty SS headers on a few of these and they didn't rust anywhere near like the OEM, the SS not at all.
Did they use the new Ford SS studs?

I always do both sides on these, one almost always follows the other, plus the drivers side is a lot easier.


Same side. It is getting the stainless headers this time. Yes, it got the new stainless studs from Ford.
 
Another great analogy and because of this most taxis have much less start-up wear.

Originally Posted By: dave5358
As for taxis running propane, that was fairly unusual - a few very large cities with serious pollution issues. Taxis tend to rack up high mileage and last a long time because the engines rarely cools down, and most taxis are driven in a fairly conservative manner. Plus, fleet owners tend to take maintenance quite seriously.
 
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Propane conversions are normally done by professional shops on engines originally designed to run on gasoline. I'm surprised an oiler wasn't installed as part of the conversion. By comparison to propane, gasoline seem absolutely oily. When a UCL is used in a propane/cng conversion, the dosage rate can be very low.

Yep, Shannow gave me a very cool link. For the taxis, other motorists killed taxis before dry fuel did.
wink.gif


Originally Posted By: dave5358
You raised a good point that I had forgotten about - propane is really cheap. Our local gas-electric utility ran its vehicles on propane and operating economy was probably a big motivation. The $2000-4000 cost of a propane conversion would pay for itself in just a few years.

My best price on propane, at one time, was getting paid two cents per litre to take it. The pump price was five cents per litre (price war) and the included, refundable tax (by mail in rebate) was seven cents per litre. So, I got paid to take the fuel.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
[ Mine currently has an exhaust leak. Again. Bloody manifolds
mad.gif



Same side? I used aftermarket ones or Gibson shorty SS headers on a few of these and they didn't rust anywhere near like the OEM, the SS not at all.
Did they use the new Ford SS studs?

I always do both sides on these, one almost always follows the other, plus the drivers side is a lot easier.


Same side. It is getting the stainless headers this time. Yes, it got the new stainless studs from Ford.


Have you looked at the Gibson SS shorties? I used them on an 04 Expedition 5.4, nice!
They have the egr provision and a nice thick flange, perfect fit.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
[ Mine currently has an exhaust leak. Again. Bloody manifolds
mad.gif



Same side? I used aftermarket ones or Gibson shorty SS headers on a few of these and they didn't rust anywhere near like the OEM, the SS not at all.
Did they use the new Ford SS studs?

I always do both sides on these, one almost always follows the other, plus the drivers side is a lot easier.


Same side. It is getting the stainless headers this time. Yes, it got the new stainless studs from Ford.


Have you looked at the Gibson SS shorties? I used them on an 04 Expedition 5.4, nice!
They have the egr provision and a nice thick flange, perfect fit.


Yessir, those are the ones
thumbsup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: dino33
So, we like additives to extend our engine life, keep them running at top performance, and maybe even get some extra mileage with our fuel. the question is do we use additives and ignore an upper cylinder? Is a ucl as effective as an additive? And is there any evidence or proof that an upper cylinder lubricant is effective at lessening wear and keeping your engine in top shape? For what it's worth I'm using ceretec/Mos2 with good oil. As well, I've been using Lucas ucl for the last year. I want to get at least a half a million kms out of the Prius. So far so good.... Thanks in advance...


There is little benefit from top oils:

Quote:
Others try to simply "lubricate" the valve seats with upper cylinder oil. The temperatures involved are much to[o]
great for simple lubricants.

Redline Link
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule

There is little benefit from top oils:


Interesting, it makes me wonder why Redline adds a UCL to their FI cleaner, and then advertises about it?
21.gif
 
Originally Posted By: nleksan
Probably because everyone else does, and they don't want to lose sales over semantics.


That could very well be, if so then they aren't the stellar ethical company I thought they were. Oh well.
 
Originally Posted By: nleksan
Probably because everyone else does, and they don't want to lose sales over semantics.


Here is what I think they think: If you have a public out there who thinks they need a particular product, you may as well sell them the product to increase sales.

It has been bantered around and claimed in some adv. that certain esters can function as an Upper Cylinder Lube.

I have yet to see any STLE, SAE, or lab document that shows any scientific (thermodynamic, tribological, chemical, or mechnical) evidence to support the need for an upper cylinder lubricant.

If and when I ever find such a document I will write a white paper on it.

I can see where a fuel additive may help lubricate say the pintle/valve in a diesel fuel injector system when using low sulfur fuel. But how much wear would it actually reduce?

Again, some supportable, repeatable data would be nice.
 
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When I used Gumout All In One for the PEA, I was unaware that it had the UCL / friction modifier.

I did notice the car was smoother, and that this lasted for a couple more tanks. My wife noticed it too.

Now the manufacturer does say not to use UCL so I will follow their instructions going forward as I presume they have looked at this far more completely and figured that any potential gains (if any) are outweighed by known and unknown risks.

Of course, UCLs must do something otherwise people wouldn't buy them. For some, that something is in their heads, but I would guess that some smoothness does occur for some people.
 
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