Advice: Just lost 2 engines pre-100k miles

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: shredguy
2011 Freightliner M2
Cummins ISB 240hp
82,199 miles, 7120 truck hours
Blew Head Gasket, full engine rebuild.

For this truck, I believe this is the engine you are talking about here: Cummins
As has already been mentioned, your 3 month oil change interval is probably too short - especially with Delo conventional (a good oil, but not designed for long drains). Also as was mentioned, check things like coolant changes and other PM as they relate to an hours schedule vs miles. Also already mentioned was that there could be a couple of reasons for the gasket problem completely unrelated to oil and filter changes. I would expect switching to an hour related system may help with this on all sides.

Originally Posted By: shredguy
2010 International 4400 Maxxforce 285hp
113k miles, 8800 truck hours
Threw a rod, full engine replacement


Which Maxxforce engine is this (the 9, 10 or DT)? This one has a much larger sump capacity then the Cummins engine so it might handle the longer drains a little better - but without a solid analysis profile it is hard to say.

My suggestion for both trucks (and any other in your fleet for that matter)is:

-1- Switch immediately over to an hours based maintenance schedule - installing hours gauges will help keep track accurately.
-2- Find a lab that can do analysis for you - start with the recommended 500 hour changes and get them all tested. If you need help interpreting these results you can ask the lab to help you or you can post them here and we can try to help. If someone else is doing the service, make sure that they are sampling correctly to help keep your results accurate.
-3- After 2 or 3 samples at 500 hours (both the Cummins and Maxxforce engines recommend 500 hour changes for oil service) you should start to get an idea of the trend. Make sure to get TBN and Nitration if possible included in your analysis. These can help you understand what is happening to the oil, but can also be used to check fuel combustion quality - which can be related to the emissions systems which could be a contributing factor in both failures. I've hear that soot issues and filter plugging can be a problem with some of those Cummins engines in busses.
-4- Try to get to 12 000 hours before engine rebuilds - a lot of stationary diesels (albeit bigger engines then these) schedule rebuilds around 12 000 hours.
-5- Once you have a feel for what is going on with an analysis program, if you want to look at other tweaks to your maintenance, there may be possibilities (long drain filters, synthetic oils, evaluating DPF/SCR performance etc).

 

[edwardh1]

how well and often is the oil level checked

 

[Ramblejam]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
both the Cummins and Maxxforce engines recommend 500 hour changes for oil service


Just to be that guy...the 2010 Maxxforce DT is actually rated at 550 hours.

 

[Solarent]

LOL

True true. I wondered if someone would say anything about those extra 50 hours. I was going for simplicity over specificity. I will be more careful next time.

 

[SatinSilver]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
As has already been mentioned, your 3 month oil change interval is probably too short -


Too short or was that a typo?

 

[Solarent]

Definitely a typo.

Should say Too long. Thanks.

 

[SatinSilver]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
Definitely a typo.

Should say Too long. Thanks.


Ahhhh, gotcha.

 

[roadrunner1]

At a 40 hr. work-week with 3 month intervals you would be just over the 500 hrs. interval, not really enough to cause catastrophic engine failure.

Going out on a limb here I am going to guess the DPF is causing your issue by fuel dilution with the rod through the block and increased back-pressure with the other.

I think you'll find when you dig into the hour meters you're either at the recommended intervals or just over. There is nothing wrong with your choice of oil, just the interval needs to be adjusted per UOA.

 

[svchareta]

I've had good success with off road, marine, and stationary, gas and diesel engines using the following guideline.

Gas - Carburetor Engine - Change oil every 50 hours of run time.
Gas - Fuel Injected Engine - Change the oil every 100 hours of engine run time.

Diesel - Either Mechanical or Electronic fuel injection - Change oil every 100 hours of engine run time.
Good Luck

 

[Garak]

Yes, this is not an uncommon recommendation in the agricultural sector. Nonetheless, some UOAs would be very useful here.

 

[shredguy]

Originally Posted By: roadrunner1
At a 40 hr. work-week with 3 month intervals you would be just over the 500 hrs. interval, not really enough to cause catastrophic engine failure.

Going out on a limb here I am going to guess the DPF is causing your issue by fuel dilution with the rod through the block and increased back-pressure with the other.

I think you'll find when you dig into the hour meters you're either at the recommended intervals or just over. There is nothing wrong with your choice of oil, just the interval needs to be adjusted per UOA.


Our DPFs give us nothing but problems. Any solutions I need to know about? Anything I can do about fuel dilution?

 

[roadrunner1]

The international MaxxForce engines of that vintage were known to have very poor DPF systems, so bad that International has done away with that system entirely and went with a DEF system similar to what everyone else is using.

The only thing i can advise at this point is to UOA, start at 200-250 hrs. and go from there. I know the service interval is at least 500 hrs. but in my opinion you are experiencing DPF issues related to the nature of your business. Your trucks need to be run down the highway every so often to "blow the carbon out".

When researching for a replacement truck make sure the DPF system requires DEF, while its not perfect it is better than what you have.

 

[shredguy]

Originally Posted By: roadrunner1
The international MaxxForce engines of that vintage were known to have very poor DPF systems, so bad that International has done away with that system entirely and went with a DEF system similar to what everyone else is using.

The only thing i can advise at this point is to UOA, start at 200-250 hrs. and go from there. I know the service interval is at least 500 hrs. but in my opinion you are experiencing DPF issues related to the nature of your business. Your trucks need to be run down the highway every so often to "blow the carbon out".

When researching for a replacement truck make sure the DPF system requires DEF, while its not perfect it is better than what you have.


All of our post 2010 trucks are DEF required. What sucks is that our 2011 that blew a gasket was a DEF required truck.

I think our high level of idle/PTO operation is definitely adversely affecting our dpf function. Just not sure how to fix it. I guess we could have each driver go for an extra 20 mile drive once a week.

 

[Garak]

At what RPM do you run your PTO operations? At least in the agricultural sector, it's significantly higher than idle. I think with the Case equipment I last used, it was around 1900 rpm or so, but my memory could be in error.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: roadrunner1
The international MaxxForce engines of that vintage were known to have very poor DPF systems, so bad that International has done away with that system entirely and went with a DEF system similar to what everyone else is using.



Something doesn't make sense there... DEF (Diesel Emission Fluid) and DPF (diesel particulate filter) systems do totally different things. DEF reduces NOx, DPF traps particulates. Most diesel engines today have both of these systems.

EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) is the system that can be used (up to a point) instead of DEF, and is the one that caused all the Maxxforce and Powerstroke cooling system problems because they were boiling coolant in the EGR coolers. EGR is tempting because it avoids the extra expendable fluid, tank, pumps, etc. of DEF, but it requires such a large volume of exhaust gas be recirculated that not only were the coolers a problem, sooting up the engine oil even faster than a 'normal' diesel was a huge issue. DEF requires a lot of add-on "stuff," but it makes the core engine a lot happier than running a hube volume of EGR does.

Maxxforce had far less of an issue with EGR than the Powerstroke branded versions of the same basic engine due to the different power tuning between the two applications, plus things like the Ford radiator caps that failed and allowed excessive boiling inside the cooler to push coolant out of the engine.

 

[KD0AXS]

Originally Posted By: roadrunner1
The international MaxxForce engines of that vintage were known to have very poor DPF systems, so bad that International has done away with that system entirely and went with a DEF system similar to what everyone else is using.


They haven't actually done away with their non-DEF system. What they are doing is offering the choice of either their MaxxForce engines or the Cummins ISB. The MaxxForce engines will continue to not use DEF, while the Cummins does use DEF.

http://www.truckinginfo.com/channel/prod...-desktop-view=1

 

[artificialist]

Originally Posted By: svchareta
I've had good success with off road, marine, and stationary, gas and diesel engines using the following guideline.

Gas - Carburetor Engine - Change oil every 50 hours of run time.
Gas - Fuel Injected Engine - Change the oil every 100 hours of engine run time.

Diesel - Either Mechanical or Electronic fuel injection - Change oil every 100 hours of engine run time.
Good Luck

I would start thinking differently about diesel engine oil changes.

After 2008, DPF led to bad fuel dilution and extra EGR led to higher soot loading.

It disturbs me that the mechanics disassembling the dead engines don't tell you very much. I would have expected them to tell a longer story, and they would tell you if you were getting oil sludge as a consequence of not properly changing oil.

I am not sure how it works in trucking and professional fleets, but in a huge number of cars, the owner doesn't care about their cooling system, and that is what often causes early engine death. How did the cooling systems look?

 

[roadrunner1]

Thanks for the details guys I'm not up on this size truck nearly as much as the rest of you.

The MaxxForce has been problematic in regards to the emission system, more so than most of the other choices.

Occasional highway trips will help with the regen cycles.

 

[KenO]

Here's one - do you NEED trucks with diesel engines? Will a gasoline engine perform this task? What about a truck with a separate engine powering the shredding unit, like how reefer units have their own separate diesel engine??

 

[shredguy]

Originally Posted By: KenO
Here's one - do you NEED trucks with diesel engines? Will a gasoline engine perform this task? What about a truck with a separate engine powering the shredding unit, like how reefer units have their own separate diesel engine??


Shredding trucks are very specialized, there are only 3 major manufacturers. They all come on Diesels and run off of PTO.