IF WS2 = ultimate lubricant

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I researched this material over a period of many months.When I found information I read it, but had no real reason to retain it. I was trying to find out sufficient information to determine I wanted it. Then many more months searching for sources.In a number of cases, what appeared to be a good piece of information was behind a pay wall or required membership in some organization. I did not pursue those sources.

Hard information was fairly tedious to find. Following lots of links to finally find info. One of the best sources of information is the (I believe) principals of the company I have referenced for product; Apnano. They were behind a lot of the information I did find. They apparently were/are quite prominent in the development of the technology and basic research.

I appear to have misconstrued the point of the posts from JHZR2. As I noted, I am not an oil guy. Different kind of engineer entirely. I believe I was distracted by the discussion repeatedly reverting to nanotubes. But I read a lot and joust with windmills at every opportunity. As my wife will attest, I will see some little bit of information that intrigues me and I will hare off for many many hours in pursuit of more information on that little interesting bit. This one has consumed a lot of time.I have a few things that I would like to have as little friction as possible, improve the lifetime of surfaces meeting each other (at high speed, temperature, and pressure), and maybe control surface corrosion to some extent. Hence my quest for IF WS2.

I have one product here that includes IF WS2. I will buy another if I can verify what that stuff The Oil Hub has is. I believe I know; just want to verify dosage rate.

I also have some regular old WS2 (600nm). I have used it a few places and it is similar to Molybdenum Disulphide. Nasty to get off things and slippery. But without Graphite added as is popular in readily available consumer Moly. Do I notice the WS2 is better than the Moly; no. The effects are simply too small for me to just sense with normal tools (e.g., Mark I eyeball, standard arms and hands). But I know what it is doing. And it makes me happy.

A note on the 600nm (actually I believe a range of sizes as I am sure you know) WS2. I an using alcohol for a carrier. I can't go get the bottle right now, but I believe it does settle when it sits. A little shaking and it suspends nicely. I have no way to examine what it does at the scale of the particle size. But it does not seem to make big lumps at the macro level. I understand that that comment is not particularly meaningful for the discussion.
 
marting, I read their short post on the web site. If what they say is anyway near correct, I do not think it is IF WS2. Or even plain old WS2.

Reasons:

Powder appears to be white (e.g., baby powder) - WS2 is very black.

The description of what it does seems to be excessive, for any lubricant I am familiar with (which is not all that much).

Shotpeening effects would strike me as completely wrong if it is WS2. Even most of the others. Nothing I mentioned depends on altering the surface from impact. It happens because of attractive forces that let the material fill in surface irregularities and then rub on each other (or base material) on the interfering surfaces. Granted, in moving machinery those forces are likely to be present.

There are a couple of problems with their guess at additional components. If Moly was added it would likely be black(ish) in useful quantities. Adding Zinc, Tin, or Moly to IF WS2 would be superfluous. The IF WS2 is better at the desired properties than any of those materials separately or in combination.

They guess it is probably some sort of ceramic like stuff. That is likely. Possibly Hex Boron Nitride.

IF WS2 can be applied by burnishing or spraying at a fairly low pressure. It does provide some corrosion protection. It will also work with non-metallic materials (as will some of the others).

The molecular weights of B+N and WS+2S are significantly different. With the right tools you might be able to make a gross exclusion of one or the other in your sample.


A side note: Supplying IF WS2 as a powder could be dangerous in that breathing it is not a good idea. WS2 is not specifically toxic, but particles of that size are not going to be filtered out by simple masks and consumers are not likely to use even that much protection. This is true of a lot of stuff at that size. We are still real early in understanding the hazards of nanotechnology.
 
No one seems to have followed up on that link (or confessed doing so).

Here is some more stuff. The material is finally entering the commercial (actually retail) stream. I have ranted on about this in several threads, Tungsten Disulphide (WS2) works better than just about anything else (it is physics, look it up). It is now becoming available in the civilian (proletariat masses) market place. It is in oil (Millers Oils, IF WS2), in additives WS2, (http://lowerfriction.com/product-page.php?categoryID=1), IF WS2 (http://www.apnano.com/), and as a powder in various forms. As a component of various lubricants; all of the above. Industrially it has been available as a coating service or various lubrication products for some time. There are several molecular structure forms, all better than MoS2. It is physics/chemistry, not marketing. Browse those sites. Refrain from demanding citations while disregarding published information. Do your research. The physical data is indisputable. Nano scale materials are different. WS2 is just simple physics. Together they rock.

I have had a brief communication with one of the senior people involved in the researching and productizing nano-forms of WS2. It was interesting that his current examination indicates that laminar forms of WS2 may be a better lubricant material. My research (online, not in a lab)favored the Fullerene like structure. The examination of surfaces (with the various esoteric nano imaging technologies) seemed to favor the effect of the delamination of the spherical IF structure to provide filling of very small surface imperfections; hence further reducing friction effects. I have not found a lot of data on the sheet version in terms of providing a smoother surface for the interface. I am currently assuming the sheets must disassemble in similar way to provide the surface smoothing effect.

I currently have IF WS2 in oil, largish WS2 nano particles, and
IF WS2 as an additive. I would still like to get some IF WS2 powder for direct surface impregnation. I am not sure that trying to get some of the sheet form is worth the trouble.

What I am having problems with is why this thread contains so much "philosophical debate" when the physical characteristics of the material are well known. It is not like I got the information from the Easter Bunny.
 
Originally Posted By: alternety
Anyone look at the Springer link and pay to read the document?


I have the article open on my computer right now. No time to discuss. Will later.
 
There are now two available sources for WS2 in the preferred format Inorganic Fullerene like WS2. Both sources are Buckyballs of around 60nm. They are comprised entirely of a matrix of WS2. They are superior in every way to MoS2. Under use, the Fullerene structure can be sheared under pressure forming even smaller fragments of WS2. Thus improving its' ability to penetrate and bond to much smaller surface imperfections in the lubricated material. The nano-scale sizes tends to keep it suspended. It is too small to be removed by oil filters. I have never seen a reference indicating it needs any treatment or complementary materials to make it work in oil.

Originally MoS2 was cheaper and it became the most commonly used lubricant of the general type.

Sources for IF WS2: As a high grade motor oil containing the WS2 - A British firm named Millers Oils. It is available in a couple of different weights. Imported by performanceracingoils.

As an additive: Earlier in the year APnano in Israel began offering some product online. It had minimum orders and expensive shipping. They were a major developer of the technology for bulk production of IF WS2. A number of fundamental researchers in the field were founders or participants. The concentrated additive is now available in the US from http://www.theoilhub.com/.
 
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: alternety
The concentrated additive is now available in the US from http://www.theoilhub.com/.


^^^Is this the same exact stuff that's in the Millers oils' add packs, or can't we know that due to 'proprietary' info issues??


That would be very interesting to find out.
 
The additive is documented on the APnano site as IF WS2. That is their primary business. Go to apnano and browse.

demarpaint - thank you for your tag line. If only that had been the attitude during the Nam fiasco.
 
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I did not pay enough attention to the words in dailydrivers post.

Millers Oils had additives packaged. My information was that they would not be imported to the US. I went back to their site just now and no longer found the product on their site. Maybe I just missed it.

Bottom line; IF WS2 should be IF WS2. It is a specific structure of WS2 molecules. Not any real wiggle room. That is the material used in both the cited products. These are the only two I currently feel confident stating that they really are IF WS2. For what that is worth.
 
So... say you buy a dispersed WS2 nanoparticle in a carrier fluid. Who wants to put that milky, opaque suspension in their car? There will be some people that take the plunge, but the average consumer is going to look at it and think it is wet oil. Same goes for Boron Nitride dispersions. MoS2 suspensions may get a little more default acceptance because they have been around for so long and everyone has seen moly greases - they know what they are looking at.

The beauty of organometallic FMs is that these products are perfectly clear and bright because they are actually soluble in oil. Moly dithiophosphates decompose to deliver MoS2 upon heating, but when you pour it in your engine it doesn't look like [censored].
 
The WS2 carrier is simply oil. Looks like MoS2.

You could be right. I don't pretend to know how the average car owner will respond. On the other hand, they won't know what it looks like until they buy it.
 
Originally Posted By: alternety
I did not pay enough attention to the words in dailydrivers post.

Millers Oils had additives packaged. My information was that they would not be imported to the US. I went back to their site just now and no longer found the product on their site. Maybe I just missed it.


Yes, I now remember Mr. King (from this thread) stating that it WAS actually available in England, but he was not sure IF it would ever make it over here.

He also was not sure if they would ever produce an MTL fluisd with ester base stock blends and the Nanotech add pack.
frown.gif


I wonder IF the stand alone additive is still available, even over there, if it has disappeared from their site?
21.gif
 
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: alternety
I did not pay enough attention to the words in dailydrivers post.

Millers Oils had additives packaged. My information was that they would not be imported to the US. I went back to their site just now and no longer found the product on their site. Maybe I just missed it.


Yes, I now remember Mr. King (from this thread) stating that it WAS actually available in England, but he was not sure IF it would ever make it over here.

He also was not sure if they would ever produce an MTL fluisd with ester base stock blends and the Nanotech add pack.
frown.gif


I wonder IF the stand alone additive is still available, even over there, if it has disappeared from their site?
21.gif



Millers procures the additives commercially. They import a lot of the content in their oils (some base stocks, some additives, etc.). Millers will NOT sell the NT additive as any kind of stand-alone oil treatment. Sorry for the ambiguity, hope that clears it up. We (Performance Racing Oils) import the oils and sell them both directly and through some dealers.

There is a manual transmission fluid available, but the viscosity is of a typical gear oil (75w90). I've been talking with them about trying to make a case to bring in an ATF type gear oil for T-56 and other similar applications that spec an ATF. Can't put NT in a true ATF because it would be too slick for the bands. But I'm trying!
smile.gif
 
I don't believe the additive was ever available from King. It was on the site in England, but as I said above, I could not find it now. But I did not look all that hard. The other product above is a stand-alone product with the same active ingredient.

To give you a sense of real cost, the additive is used at 25ml/L of oil. They sell two sizes. More won't hurt, but may be a waste. The amount needed to plate is quite small. Personally, I am going to use it through at least two oil changes. Then maybe once in a while. The material actually bonds to the metal in the engine. It can be used directly in concentrated form as almost a lifetime coating in some uses. You just burnish it on or spray it. If you have ever seen a suitably magnified of what we would view as a finely polished surface, you will see that it looks rather like a 3D topo map of the Rocky Mountains. The Ws2 will fill the valleys. Your engine will knock off the peaks.

This is purely a gut feeling, but I am not sure I would immediately drain the manufacturers "break-in) oil when I get a car. But I would like to. There is probably a little friction needed for all the parts to settle in and kind of adjust the clearances. Not as much as it used to be; but some.

I have a Honda, and I am told (?) that the original oil is loaded with MoS2. The two materials will compete with each other for filling holes in the surface. Again, a pure guess from a mental picture, is that the WS2 will eventually displace much of the MoS2. It is much harder, and probably much smaller particles. I am going to change at under 2K miles. I would have done it earlier but I just found/got the additive.

I am still looking for powder. The product referenced uses mineral oil for a carrier. I would have preferred a synthetic. It is such a small amount of oil it won't matter for gross applications (engines, gears, etc.) but I have some applications where I would like to apply it dry.

In the powder form it is used for treating bullets. The IF form is probably not necessary for this. You can get fairly large particles for much less money.
 
jake88 said:
So... say you buy a dispersed WS2 nanoparticle in a carrier fluid. Who wants to put that milky, opaque suspension in their car? There will be some people that take the plunge, but the average consumer is going to look at it and think it is wet oil.

I did not think sufficiently about what you said about appearance. The IF WS2 oil looks just like regular oil oil. I have some in a jar and some in a hypodermic (IF WS2 must be good for me to take intravenously. The necessary concentration is quite low.
Click to expand...
 
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Originally Posted By: 67King
I've been talking with them about trying to make a case to bring in an ATF type gear oil for T-56 and other similar applications that spec an ATF. Can't put NT in a true ATF because it would be too slick for the bands. But I'm trying!
smile.gif



Then just try to get them to produce a manual transmission (MTL/MTF) type fluid, which is slightly heavier than a Dex 3 ATF, and GL-4 rated, and FORGET about the dual use/rating.
wink.gif

Unless they feel the nano add pack would be too slick to let the synchros/blocker rings engage properly??
21.gif
 
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