2013 BRZ - Two UOAs (GC0w30 and Toyota SN 0w20)

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Just a history of this car; purchased it new, use the car on track occasionally, it is pretty much stock except for sticky street tires and race brake pads. Car has direct injection, it is a flat 4, 2.0L, premium fuel.

My first UOA was the German Castrol 0w30 with 998 miles on the oil, including 2 days on track. I didn't like how high the oil temps were getting on track (hovered in the high 280's, low 290's, and touched 300*), so that is why I switched to the Toyota SN 0w20.

Second UOA is with the Toyota SN 0w20 with a little over 2,000 miles on the oil, including 4 days on track. Oil temps dropped almost 10* overall on track (averaged high 270s up to the mid 280s).

I always use the OEM Subaru oil filer.


Let me know your thoughts on the UOA. I am a bit worried about the low flashpoint with the Toyota 0w20, so I am planning on running Redline 0w20 or Motul 300v 0w20 next time around.



Here is the UOA with the Toyota 0w20 in the left column and the GC 0w30 in the right column, with the averages in the middle:

i-6sB2prc-L.jpg


Also, here are my follow up questions to Blackstone and their responses after each UOA:

FIRST UOA
ME:
I use the car a lot for track days. This was after two days on track, with approximately 250 track miles. Do you see any issue with running longer on the same oil? The oil temps were in the 290*s, so that is why I was worried about running more than two days on this oil. I just recently completed a single day event on Toyota 0w20, which I will be sending in a sample of as well after the next track day.

BLACKSTONE:
Running longer on the oil shouldn't be a problem. The oil itself was fine in your sample, and the wear levels weren't unexpected for a new engine, so we don't see why not. When running more track days on the oil, you might see some of the wear metals reading higher than average, but that's normal with engines used for racing. You could try increasing your oil runs slowly (say, adding one more track day or 300-500 miles to the previous run), and seeing how your engine and oil are handling that kind of use.



SECOND UOA:

ME: Few questions regarding the report. Is the flashpoint of 380*f for the Toyota 0w20 something to be concerned about for track usage? I noticed the flashpoint of the 0w30 German Castrol was much higher at 425*f. With the cSt viscosity @ 100*c being much lower than the previous sample of 0w30 German Castrol, do you think this Toyota 0w20 is still offering good protection for track use? The one thing I did not like about the 0w30 was oil temps would get close to 300*f on track, with the increased viscosity. Also, I noticed the first sample shows
BLACKSTONE:
Thanks for the question. Let me give you a little background. We use the flashpoint test to calculate the amount of fuel present. Each oil has a certain staring point (and that's where we get our should-be values). When we run the flashpoint test, your results should be above the "should be" value. That was the case with your first sample, so we wrote So in your sample here, the flashpoint was a little below the should-be value, which means there's something in the oil lowering the flashpoint. In this case, we suspect it's fuel (unless you're dumping paint thinner in the engine or something like that, but if that's the case, then Lord help us all!) Because your flashpoint was pretty close to the should-be value, we calculated fuel at just a trace. Not a lot, but enough that it did lower the flashpoint some.
So hopefully that helps answer your questions on the flashpoint.. but if you need more information, let me know.
As far as the viscosity, yes, the 0W/20 is a bit thinner than the 0W/30 you were using before. It didn't seem to hurt wear any -- after all your metals are better here than they were. I'd say the 0W/20 is giving you good protection. And if it's keeping temps where you want them, then by all means stick with it. It seems to be doing just fine!
 
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That thing needs an oil cooler if you're sustaining high-270 F oil temps. I'd consider running a high performance 0w20 like Motul 300V or Red Line.
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
That thing needs an oil cooler if you're sustaining high-270 F oil temps. I'd consider running a high performance 0w20 like Motul 300V or Red Line.

This.
 
I personally think its far too early in the engine's life to draw conclusions. The putting-around-town oil temps on my SRT dropped 5-10 degrees F (despite the weather getting HOTTER!) over the first 10,000 miles I put on it, and I'm sure a lot of that is just break-in. So is the cooler temp in your case due to the engine starting to feel good about itself? OR is it the thinner oil? I suspect both, frankly.

Peak oil temps pushing near 300F on the track for a modern engine are no issue, in fact some would argue that's right where they SHOULD be under hard usage. If the engine is spec'd for Xw20, then I probably wouldn't run GC in it since its on the thick side of 30, usually.
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
That thing needs an oil cooler if you're sustaining high-270 F oil temps. I'd consider running a high performance 0w20 like Motul 300V or Red Line.


Funny you mention that; everyone on the BRZ forums go on and on about an oil cooler, but no one can specifically tell me why 270* is the magical number, and what happens at that temp that causes damage (either short term or long term). From everything I have researched, these oils are plenty capable of handling those temps, as well as the engines?

Plus, I haven't seen any reports of people losing an engine from sustaining 270* oil temps on track?

I don't like the aftermarket oil coolers because a.) warranty issues (if I blow the motor completely OEM I have a better chance of it being warrantied vs. with an oil cooler on it) b.) I've had them on prior cars and they are just another failure point, random leaks, etc. and have seen more fires from oil coolers than blown motors without oil coolers and c.) I've seen that the oil cooler can drop oil pressures dangerously low, and am worried about extra strain on the oil pump itself.
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I personally think its far too early in the engine's life to draw conclusions. The putting-around-town oil temps on my SRT dropped 5-10 degrees F (despite the weather getting HOTTER!) over the first 10,000 miles I put on it, and I'm sure a lot of that is just break-in. So is the cooler temp in your case due to the engine starting to feel good about itself? OR is it the thinner oil? I suspect both, frankly.

Peak oil temps pushing near 300F on the track for a modern engine are no issue, in fact some would argue that's right where they SHOULD be under hard usage. If the engine is spec'd for Xw20, then I probably wouldn't run GC in it since its on the thick side of 30, usually.



Definitely a valid point about the drop in oil temps; engine was pretty much brand new, and just finishing the break in period (right at 1k miles on the first day on track).
 
I've seen it quoted multiple places that the SRT engineers are on record saying they don't see any problems with oil at 300F. Of course SRTs (at least the -8 and -10, I neither know nor care about the -4 and -6 ;p ) spec a 0w40 synthetic oil. But still, degradation-wise modern oils don't cook off at
BTW, a co-worker has an FR-S, and the thing is fantastic. Not the straight-line speed he'd hoped for (he races a modified 3000GT), but still amazing. Given that the drivetrain is so overwhelmingly Subaru DNA, I'm still really surprised that they didn't go with a turbo engine. Yet... I bet its on the horizon if the cars sell well.
 
So far I'd say the high temps are not hurting anything, but I will consider a shorter change interval if you are going through repeated track days on a single OCI. I assume that car has a normal-sized sump (5-6qt); many of the high-performance cars, like my M3, Corvette, 911, etc have very big sumps -- 8+ qt.

While the sump temps might be nearing 300 F, remember that in critical parts of the engine the oil is even hotter.
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
So far I'd say the high temps are not hurting anything, but I will consider a shorter change interval if you are going through repeated track days on a single OCI. I assume that car has a normal-sized sump (5-6qt); many of the high-performance cars, like my M3, Corvette, 911, etc have very big sumps -- 8+ qt.

While the sump temps might be nearing 300 F, remember that in critical parts of the engine the oil is even hotter.


Thanks for the feedback. Yes, a 6 quart sump. I am changing the oil after every 4 track days, so about 2,000 miles. Do you suggest shorter than that?
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
So far I'd say the high temps are not hurting anything, but I will consider a shorter change interval if you are going through repeated track days on a single OCI. I assume that car has a normal-sized sump (5-6qt); many of the high-performance cars, like my M3, Corvette, 911, etc have very big sumps -- 8+ qt.

While the sump temps might be nearing 300 F, remember that in critical parts of the engine the oil is even hotter.


Also, just to follow up on temp readings; I believe the factory oil temp sensor is closer to the top of the engine near the oil filter (upper left front corner of the engine). which is what im reading temps from (ScanGaugeII OBDII reader)
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I've seen it quoted multiple places that the SRT engineers are on record saying they don't see any problems with oil at 300F. Of course SRTs (at least the -8 and -10, I neither know nor care about the -4 and -6 ;p ) spec a 0w40 synthetic oil. But still, degradation-wise modern oils don't cook off at
BTW, a co-worker has an FR-S, and the thing is fantastic. Not the straight-line speed he'd hoped for (he races a modified 3000GT), but still amazing. Given that the drivetrain is so overwhelmingly Subaru DNA, I'm still really surprised that they didn't go with a turbo engine. Yet... I bet its on the horizon if the cars sell well.


Great to hear, thanks!!

Yes, I absolutely love the car. It handles like a dream, incredibly precise and easy to drive at the limit. Very forgiving too and easy to control. I drove a bunch of other cars before the BRZ, including a Boss 302, a Porsche, Corvettes, etc., and it seems a little cliche, but this was the only car that I hopped into and felt like the car was an extension of me, rather than something I was trying to control. Everything about it is great, down to the simplistic interior, gauge placements, and even shift light in the tach.
 
Originally Posted By: smbstyle
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I've seen it quoted multiple places that the SRT engineers are on record saying they don't see any problems with oil at 300F. Of course SRTs (at least the -8 and -10, I neither know nor care about the -4 and -6 ;p ) spec a 0w40 synthetic oil. But still, degradation-wise modern oils don't cook off at
BTW, a co-worker has an FR-S, and the thing is fantastic. Not the straight-line speed he'd hoped for (he races a modified 3000GT), but still amazing. Given that the drivetrain is so overwhelmingly Subaru DNA, I'm still really surprised that they didn't go with a turbo engine. Yet... I bet its on the horizon if the cars sell well.


Great to hear, thanks!!

Any insight on the lower flashpoint of the Toyota 0w20 sample?

Yes, I absolutely love the car. It handles like a dream, incredibly precise and easy to drive at the limit. Very forgiving too and easy to control. I drove a bunch of other cars before the BRZ, including a Boss 302, a Porsche, Corvettes, etc., and it seems a little cliche, but this was the only car that I hopped into and felt like the car was an extension of me, rather than something I was trying to control. Everything about it is great, down to the simplistic interior, gauge placements, and even shift light in the tach.
 
Originally Posted By: smbstyle
Plus, I haven't seen any reports of people losing an engine from sustaining 270* oil temps on track?


And you won't likely hear any. I had lunch with team SRT at a track event in 05 at Homestead and was told emphatically that while 300 degrees was indeed hot it didn't hurt M1 0w-40 a bit.

I also performed 2 different OA after track events and there simply was no problem.

Use a good synth and enjoy your car!
 
Originally Posted By: smbstyle
Originally Posted By: dparm
So far I'd say the high temps are not hurting anything, but I will consider a shorter change interval if you are going through repeated track days on a single OCI. I assume that car has a normal-sized sump (5-6qt); many of the high-performance cars, like my M3, Corvette, 911, etc have very big sumps -- 8+ qt.

While the sump temps might be nearing 300 F, remember that in critical parts of the engine the oil is even hotter.


Thanks for the feedback. Yes, a 6 quart sump. I am changing the oil after every 4 track days, so about 2,000 miles. Do you suggest shorter than that?




I think that's fine. I'm sure you could go further, but until you sample to confirm...
 
Thing is with a aftermarket oil cooler is that it gives the OEM to deny warranty. An oil cooler with R compound stuck to the wheel wells is bad bad bad.
 
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Thing is with a aftermarket oil cooler is that it gives the OEM to deny warranty. An oil cooler with R compound stuck to the wheel wells is bad bad bad.


Exactly my thought; after speaking with some friends who work in the dealership industry, they would immediately associate that with a failure point, despite it dropping oil temps, it puts additional strain on the oil pump, changes the characteristics of the oil system that wasn't designed from the factory including operating oil pressures, and an aftermarket item that directly affects how the engine would operate. Any warranty work related to engine issues would be a headache.
 
GC is an SL oil and your engine was designed for SN. On the one hand you're fretting about putting an oil cooler on the car because it would possibly cause warranty issues, but on the other hand you've already created a possible warranty issue by running an SL oil. Just a little ironic, I think.

It's disappointing how much the GC sheared. It starts at 12.2 cSt, and has dropped to 10.2 in your sample.

I don't think your engine needs a stout oil like Redline to survive track days. Just use good quality synthetics like M1 or PU 5w20, or go up to 5w30 in those brands if you want some more margin. Modern synthetics are good to 300+ degrees.
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
GC is an SL oil and your engine was designed for SN. On the one hand you're fretting about putting an oil cooler on the car because it would possibly cause warranty issues, but on the other hand you've already created a possible warranty issue by running an SL oil. Just a little ironic, I think.

It's disappointing how much the GC sheared. It starts at 12.2 cSt, and has dropped to 10.2 in your sample.

I don't think your engine needs a stout oil like Redline to survive track days. Just use good quality synthetics like M1 or PU 5w20, or go up to 5w30 in those brands if you want some more margin. Modern synthetics are good to 300+ degrees.


How would you argue a catastrophic engine failure being caused by the oil being an SL rather than SN, specifically the characteristics of the SL that would be the cause of a catastrophic engine failure? That would be a stretch IMO.
 
Also, I'm not seeing anything in the owners manual stating that the oil must be a "SN"? This is all I'm seeing in the owner's manual:

■ Engine oil selection
Always use SUBARU approved engine oil. For details, we recom-
mend that you contact your SUBARU dealer.
If approved engine oil is unavailable, another motor oil of matching
quality can also be used.
Oil grade: ILSAC multigrade engine oil
Recommended viscosity: SAE 0W-20
SAE 0W-20 is the best choice for
good fuel economy and good
starting in cold weather.



Regardless, it's kind of a moot issue as I am not running that oil anymore.

Anyways, I appreciate the feedback from everyone.
 
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