Which brand of oil filter has the best anti-drainback valve?

[unDummy]

Only during the winter do I notice certain popular orange filters poor construction. Most of the year, as long as any filter has one, it never really mattered.
If your filter removes dry, you need to switch brands. Also, change your oil with the engine warm. Even the best ADBV will slowly leak over time. There is NO filter that prevents clatter in my car after sitting a month.

Filter mounting angle/location has nothing to do with needing an ADBV or not.

Test your used ADBV's by blocking with a same thread bolt from the hardware store.

If it is overrated, then I think that somehow air is leaking into your system.
I see how you think that it only affects half the system, but it affects the whole system. I guess that you've never filled a straw up with water and suspended the water in the straw by keeping your finger on top of the straw.
Even my 8 year old daughter understands why the tubing in the fishtank has a check valve, how to vacuum the gravel using gravity, and how to hold water vertical from the top in a straw. An ADBV works the same way.

 

[kctom]

I think too much ado is made about the ADV. If keeping an oil filter full of oil was so important, engine designers would mount the filter vertically so that the oil won't drain out.

It seems to me that as long as you block only one of the two holes in an oil filter, you have the possibility that oil will leak out, just as water leaks from a garden hose after the water is turned off.

I use Fram filters. I have experienced no problems with either valve chatter or slow oil pressure on start-up.

 

[unDummy]

quote:

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Originally posted by kctom:
If keeping an oil filter full of oil was so important, engine designers would mount the filter vertically so that the oil won't drain out.

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If it isn't important, then why do most of the OEM and aftermarket filters have them? Gee, engineers are already requiring them

Oil drains out of filter regardless of how the fitler is mounted. Why is this so hard for people to understand

 

[sbc350gearhead]

[/qb][/QUOTE]
Oil drains out of filter regardless of how the fitler is mounted. Why is this so hard for people to understand

[/QB][/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, I can't seem to reason why oil would drain out of a filter that is mounted straight up. Is there something I am missing?

 

[MNgopher]

Even when the filter is vertical, all of the oil in the engine wants to have the same "energy" level. Any oil that is above the filter wants to get back to the sump, where it has lower "energy". It can get there two ways - either through the engine or through the filter. Without an ADBV, the oil simply flows backwards through the filter back to the sump, until the enrgy level balances out. With the ADBV, it cannot do that - it gets stopped on top of the filter and thus is at the ready for the next startup.

 

[sbc350gearhead]

quote:

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Originally posted by MNgopher:
Even when the filter is vertical, all of the oil in the engine wants to have the same "energy" level. Any oil that is above the filter wants to get back to the sump, where it has lower "energy". It can get there two ways - either through the engine or through the filter. Without an ADBV, the oil simply flows backwards through the filter back to the sump, until the enrgy level balances out. With the ADBV, it cannot do that - it gets stopped on top of the filter and thus is at the ready for the next startup.

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I can buy that......but the oil filter would still be full.......wouldn't it?

 

[MNgopher]

Yes, the oil filter remains full. All the oil in the engine above the filter will have displaced the original oil in the filter. The displaced oil went backwards back to the sump. The filter itself would remain full the entire time, just with different oil at the beginning and end.

 

[mf150]

Motorcraft (Purolator) has a great anti-drainback valve...I've never had a dry start.

 

[4DSC]

quote:

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Originally posted by MNgopher:
Even when the filter is vertical, all of the oil in the engine wants to have the same "energy" level. Any oil that is above the filter wants to get back to the sump, where it has lower "energy". It can get there two ways - either through the engine or through the filter. Without an ADBV, the oil simply flows backwards through the filter back to the sump, until the enrgy level balances out. With the ADBV, it cannot do that - it gets stopped on top of the filter and thus is at the ready for the next startup.

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This, along with what unDummy posted higher up, is what I understand the ADBV is supposed to do. The oil would like to flow back down the oil galleries backwards through the filter and into the sump, but the ADBV stops it. The oil galleries and passage all they way to the filter core should always be full and have no where to empty out of anyway (regardless of filter position) because it's like a well that is being filled up from the bottom. The upper cylinder head gets zilch until the system can filter enough oil to fill up/pressurize the galleries.

Because of this, I feel a good ADBV is very important, and am still looking for a good one. My PureONE still allows some startup clatter sometimes and I recently bought an OEM filter for my Nissan which is supposed to have a very good reputation. It's made in Japan and seems to have very impressive looking construction detail from what I can see without slicing it open. It has a nitrile ADBV unlike the PureONE (which I bought because it has a silicone valve), but from some recent filter disection threads like the one posted by RealWing (here) it's beginning to seem that the design and fit of the valve may be more important than whether it's made from silicone or nitrile. Some of them seem to have a nice O-ring type design...

I've been delinquent though, and still haven't got around to changing my oil yet so I'm still hoping I'll see an improvement...

Brian

 

[Mystic]

4DSC, I agree with you that the adbv is very important. You need to have oil stay in the oil filter so that the engine receives immediate lubrication. This may make for a messy oil filter change, but it will also make for a longer lasting engine.

I tried a FRAM oil filter that had an adbv on a Toyota Corolla I owned a long time ago. When I changed the oil no oil came out of that oil filter. I switched to a Toyota oil filter (expensive) and when I changed oil there was oil in the filter.

Problem is today, the car manufacturers are not making their own oil filters. There is no telling what is underneath that Toyota, Saturn, Nissan, Honda, whatever paint job.

I have heard that at least some of the oil filters made in Japan are like works of art compared to many American oil filters.

 

[Ray H]

About those vertically mounted filters that are mysteriously devoid of retained oil upon removal... The only thing separating the oil retained in the outer chamber from the center tube with all its little holes is the filter medium. By definition, it's supposed to be permeable to fluid flow... Good ol' gravity provides the "push" after the engine's shut off. The oil that seeps through into the center tube area has been, wait for it, filtered during its passage through the filter medium and is free to return to the lowest point it has access to. The only purpose of the ADBV is prevent return of unfiltered oil back into the sump.

 

[mph]

quote:

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Originally posted by cryptokid:
just try sucking on the exit hole of a NEW oil filter

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I would, but my girlfriend is the jealous type.

 

[Mystic]

Ray H, I am sorry but I have to disagree with what you said. But I will be polite in my disagreement, unlike a person who attacks me if I say anything negative about his choice of oil filter.

There has to be some oil in the oil filter when the engine is started up-otherwise you will have a dry start everytime you start up your engine. The bearings need oil as soon as possible.

You said that the only purpose to the adbv was to make sure oil was filtered before it went back into the oil pan. If this was the case, we could probably design an oil filter so that as the oil returned to the pan (following engine shut-down) it was filtered. There would be no need for adbvs at all.

That adbv is supposed to prevent oil flowing out of the oil filter and leaving the oil filter dry when the engine is restarted.

I personally believe that an awful lot of engine wear could be reduced if there were oil filters in existence that actually worked.

 

[mikemc]

I use the Motorcraft FL400S on my Ranger, it has good construction and a silicon ADBV, I feel its a good filter.

 

[Ray H]

I'll overlook your thinly veiled, flowery sarcasm, Mystic. My points were not meant as an attack on you personally. I was arguing against several posts in this thread that I feel have the issue wrong, NOT against any particular poster or posters. I was merely attempting to point up what should be an obvious flaw in the generally held assumption of the purpose of an ADBV. Back to my central point: how can a permeable medium retain oil from traversing it and exiting through the the outflow port under the pull of gravity? If there's a logical explanation for this apparent defiance of physics, I'm open to considering it. I'm still convinced that all the ADBV does is to ensure that oil flows ONE way - dirty oil in and clean oil out to the oil galleries. It can't prevent the exit of oil seaping across the filtration medium under the pull of gravity after shutdown. (when the usually fully-warmed oil is at its minimum viscosity, no less!)

Whether a "dry" start occurs is entirely dependent on the mounted position of the oil filter. Most, if not all, oilpumps contain some sort of check valve to maintain pump prime at shutdown, anyway, regardless of the presence of a filter ADBV valve. Even with the filter "dry", oil flow into it will begin VERY shortly after the engine is started. Presumably the zinc and moly content will provide adequate protection until full pressure is established. Sideways and orifice "up" vertical mounting will allow retained oil in varying degrees up to full retention when considering the latter mount. Vertical positioning in which the oil filter's orifices are positioned "down" will result in total exit of oil except for what little oil is retained by the "wicking" effect in the filter medium and capillary/adhesive attraction to the various metal and composition surfaces inside the filter canister. Anyone reading this with an oil filter mounted this way will be pleasantly surprised at how little mess results when removing the filter if he just waits 15-20 minutes after engine shutdown before removing the filter.

[ July 04, 2003, 02:16 AM: Message edited by: Ray H ]

 

[Mystic]

Ray H, I was not trying to be sarcastic to you. And you are not the person who attacks me personally.

I am not an expert on oil filter design. But I believe that there has to be oil in the oil filter when an engine is started up to reduce wear. I will address this question to the people who are experts so that we can get an answer-I will email two or three oil filter manufacturers who should know the answer. And I will let you know what I find out.

Immediately after you change your oil and oil filter (unless you have a filter that can be filled with oil), you will notice that the oil pressure light stays on briefly. The oil filter has to fill with oil.

Now restart that engine twenty minutes later-the oil pressure light goes out immediately. There is oil in the oil filter.

I remember when we had a Ford Maverick with an oil filter that was mounted in such a way that it was possible to put some oil in the filter before installing the oil filter. I noticed that if we left that oil filter dry when we installed it, the oil pressure light would stay on for a brief time and there was some noise from the engine. Later, we started to put some oil in the oil filter-it could not be filled all the way, but it could be filled part of the way. The oil pressure light would go off immediately and there was no noise from the engine.

Back in the days when oil filters were mounted on cars and trucks in such a way that gravity would keep oil in the oil filter, I noticed much less rough running of the engine when a vehicle was started up after sitting overnight. I think even in the best oil filters oil is draining from the oil filter into the pan when a vehicle is sitting overnight.

As soon as I get answers from companies that make oil filters, I will let you know what they say.

 

[Mystic]

Thanks Patman.

 

[dickwells]

"Deja vu All over again"

 

[Mystic]

dickwells, for some reason the first reply would not post. So I wrote another one, and it posted-later the other one did as well. Oh well.

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mystic:
dickwells, for some reason the first reply would not post. So I wrote another one, and it posted-later the other one did as well. Oh well.

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Don't worry, I deleted the duplicate post for you.