BOBISTHEOILGUY FILTER TESTS

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Brian, I thank you for the layout. It is exactly what I have/had in mind and now I've got a setup that will accommidate this test. I am getting ready to start this soon. I had to aquire a big enough motor to run this pump. My original system would not allow me to run the pump for more than about 30-50 secs before blowing the fuse.

I went a bought a 16spd drill press($150. + new motor) for this purpose only as I've never needed one. I then bought a like 3/4 reversible horse pwer motor as the pump rotates the oposite direction of a drill. After installing it, I then tried to set it up to bring 50lbs of input pressure on a blank filter(no media). The head pressure was so great the motor couldn't pass by 30-40lbs. So I went and upgraded the 3/4hp motor with a 2hp reversable motor on the same press. It now doesn't break a sweat getting up to 60lbs let alone 40-50. So, now the equipment is set, I will be getting back into retesting from start with set variables and no adjustment will be made one set. I plan on using the 40lb setting as I have 60lb gauges and want to make sure if we do have higher restictive filters then it will show up.

Temp is the only thing I have a problem with as I can setup some sort of heater but to heat oil to 200 degs will take some doing. The first run I do will represent an engine on start up( basic ambeiant temp). I do believe this will give some idea on how it will do. I'll put some more thought on the temp situation. I also have several used filters which has certain recorded miles so we will compare against a new filter of same brand. My thoughts on this is that most filters would need to be changed by 3k miles. Not because of junk in filter but due to hot and cold deteriation of filter media creating more restriction. Anyway, as you stated, this will show some interesting info one way or the other.
bob

[ September 07, 2003, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[Dan4510]

Bob,

Didn't someone mention an oil used by SAE that duplcates viscosity of 30w at 100degrees C without having to heat it. Do you have any idea of where you could find this?

I recently burned my foot badly with just hot water (stupid home mistake that took a month to heal and some surgery). I would think that motor oil heated to 100 degrees centigrade could be dangerous, if you got some on you, it would be like dipping into a hot oil fryer.

Just a plug for safety.

Dan

 

[Steve S]

Get a deep fryer,I don't know if they go as low as 200f but it may work.

 

[wbarnum]

Have you considered putting the results into a Microsoft Excel file for easy reference? You've done such a great job on the testing, its would be a shame for people not to have easy access to the data.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Dan, trust me, I'm not keen on the idea of hot oil.

As for excell file, great suggestion but I have a better idea. Once done, I'm going to develope its own web page so the reference can be found in one section from start to finish. I'm starting over and going to do the measurment of flow as well as pressure drops.

I'm not sure that I want to go into hot oil tests but I think that using standard ambient temps would/could still show some picture on how the filter reacts. The idea is to show what a real engine is faced with, thus using a standard engine oil pump, and a standard 10w30 oil pump with normal temps a real car would see. To, put an oil up to temp would be great but too many problems lye in respect to safety and consistancy.

 

[Brian Barnhart]

Bob,

I can appreciate your reluctance/resistance to running the tests with hot oil. Perhaps a "thin" oil test can be run at some point to simulate "hot" 10W30.

Also, any idea what the flow rate was during the set-up work you were doing recently?

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Haven't set the variables up for testing yet. I plan on the 40lb input with no filter and will measure the output amount as part of the settings. As posted in the other thread, I expect between 2-3.5gpm on no filter setup.

You can adjust output on an oil pump by replacing spring tension inside of pump to open at higher pressure. See oil pump and how it works to understand what I'm talking about.

oil pumps the hows and whys (in the interesting articles section)

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

---

the I=E/R is not pressure, flow and whatever the previous response was... Ohm's law deals with electricity.. it's current is equal to voltage divided by resistance in a DC circui

---

Sorry (imagine wrong answer buzzer going off)!!!! Err ..I mean ..I beg to differ with your opinion.

DC electricity ia DIRECTLY representive and parallel to fluid flow. Each and every aspect of it is evidenced in "flow".

Pressure: PSI or VDC
Flow: I (current) or GPM
Resistance: Ohms or the size of the conduit carrying the flow of the fluid (orfices, restrictions, etc).

If you have a 100 psi line (at the pump) ..the pressure is disapated over the length of the given line. You may have 100 psi at the pump ...and only 40 300 ft. down stream. This is the "R" of the conduit that you are using. The "flow" (I) doesn't change in a series circuit or a continuous piece of pipe. If the pump (DC power supply) is pumping 10 gpm of flow (current) ..the flow is constant though out the line (circuit). If the conductor (the pipe) has high resistance (is too restrictive) the Voltage (pressure) is divided proportionally over the circuit (the line).

Just like if I tap a high resistive line mid length ..and I have a 12v supply ...I will read 6v to ground. If I actually had a long enough pipe to read ZERO pressure at the end ...I would read one half of the supply pressure at mid legnth.

If Bob used 2" lines between the pump and the remote filter setup (using bushings) ...there would be no pressure drop between the pump and the remote (or any "measureable" drop). On the other hand if he used 1/4" lines ...and he has 40 psi at the pump ...he'll have a **** of alot less at the remotes since the lines are a "resistance" in the circuit. Using the 1/2" lines that he does now probably does just fine with the same pressure at the pump and the remote (probably only measurable in inchs of water column which I think that 17" of water column= 1 lb.). This would be different if the 1/2" lines were 75 ft long.

The only diffenece that I can think of is that fluid flow is actually like a telescoping antenna in a tube. The friction of the conduit causes the outer most layer to slow ...this cascades toward the interior with the center most section being the fastest. Oh ...and orfices ...they don't follow proportionally to their size. They create turbulance that "impedes" flow (we didn't get into impedence -lol) ...but this still represents a resistance to flow - albiet somewhat "reactive".

...now that I think about it ...the electon flow with a given conductor tends to have some kind of afinity for either the exterior or the center (I forget which - I'm not sure what the EMF does to it)

[ September 09, 2003, 12:11 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Gary,

kinda neat way to try and compare but it really isn't the same as a dc circuit.

The pipe does not produce "resistance" to pressure unlike a wire(resistance) will to I(current). Once pressure is built up due to the resistance at the end of the pipe, then pressure is = all the way from that point back to the pump. The pressure will change from the output of the pipe if the pipe is reduced down, creating a higher pressure with less volume. I agree that when you change the resistance, it will affect the pressure and volume of the fluid. but, in the case of this test, the same size tubing is used from the pump to the filter, where the pressure will be affected depending on the restrictions/ resistance of the holes. Thus, the pressure between the pump and the filter will be the same but the pressure through the filter will change due to flow resistance in the filter so output side of the filter will be affected and not normally reflect the same pump pressure on the output.

Pull any resistor out of the middle of the circuit(the filter) and just run direct, there will be no pressure loss or drop from start to finish. In this case, the resistance provided at the end of my hose, is a ball check valve, which will be preset, and the output of this will be higher and the volume will be lower than provided input such as when you cover part of a water hose with your finger. Again, no difference in pressure between the faucet and the finger. The amount of pressure between those two points will only differ by changing the input volume or changing the output resistance.

[ September 09, 2003, 06:15 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[Gary Allan]

Bob, and with all due respect,..I don't agree. This is not only from electronics school ...but from a 20 year background in process control in industrial waste treatment where I could observe these physical events first hand. 45 continuously operating pumps with literally miles of piping.


Again ...try and use 1/4" lines (or capillary tubes for that matter) off of your pump and see that the 40 lb. that you produce AT THE PUMP is now down to 15 or 20 (assuming all other things being equal). That lost pressure has been "consumed" or disapated overcoming the resistance of the 1/4" line. It's the same with lightbulbs in series. The bulb is a "choke" to the flow. You could manipulate the pressure at the remotes back up to 40 psi by placing a downstream "resistance" by choking the flow back ...but in that scenerio you are only "re-balancing" the circuit by making the 1/4" line less of a factor in the restriction. This would naturally mean that the "flow" would be choked as well. You would see this event in "real time" if you run your pump at a given rpm (guaranteed gpm flow) and put a number of filter installations down stream in series. By placing a gauge at each installation, you will see the pressure drop at each filter. You see it now. The Fram had 40 psi on the pump side ...and (I don't recall) xxx pressure below it. The flow would not change if the pump was running at a given speed (and the relief was not employed). The flow would remain the same ....merely the initial pressure (it may 60 psi) and pressure disapation would change. You could not use your "40 psi" standard in this scenereo. That is, you would have a "flow standard" ...and therefore your pressure would be different (again assuming that the pressure relief was defeated for the test).

Every conductor has a resistance. Even 1 guage cable or 6' concrete aquaduct. Whether it is a significant factor in flow resistance depends on it's resistance/conductance and the length employed to transmit the given flow. This is why we don't use DC current for anything requiring power transmission of any distance. The size of the conductors is totally prohibitive in practicality.

This is the same for steam or any other power transmission that employs linear/series flow. If a boiler produces 135 psi at the header ...and you're sending it 500 ft. through a 4" line ....and assuming that you have any real consumption at the other end ..that pressure will never match the supply.

The factor that may throw this out of "parallel" realization for most people is that an oil pump is a positive displacement pump. This is hard to demonstrate in any household environment since most events that we view are not so powered. In your household water example ...if you just had one extremely long outlet ........you would not "overload the supply" ...but the downsteam pressure would be reduced the further you got from the supply. We tend to run into events where the flow changes. That is, because of the our variable resistance ...the flow decreases. Dead head your household water supply ....and you'll have whatever the static pressure is at the tap ...connect that same tap to a 4' pipe and let it open ...and you'll have NO PRESSURE ...but the maximum available flow through that tap (you've overloaded the supply in electrical terms).


Trust me ...I know what I'm talking about

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

I can see your not ignorant to the basics of electronics in no way, my only argument is there is no (measureable) resistance in tubing compared to resistance of wire over a specified length. I'm not saying there is no resistance to flow but we're talking about friction due to fluid drag against the inner pipe as resistance which reduces the farther in to the middle of the fluid/tube, I believe it's called the laminar flow affect. Anyway, the drop of resistance is a lot less than current drop over a wire of the same distance, of course I suppose that would depend on the size of the wire vers the pipe. Lets see, if its series it would be vcc drop instead of current. Parr would be vcc the same across the resistors and current drops, then again, I think that was kerchoffs law for parr?, man, it's been way too long, your making my head hurt. Guess that old age is catching up to me, haven't used that in a long while. I'm gonna have to pull the books out to get myself straight again. sorry.

Anyway .... For arguments sake, I'll agree, that the formula may very well be able to cross over into fluid flow.

In this case, as brian is demonstrating in his diagram, The only resistance change to show the drop across any filters will be that of the filter itself only. All variables will be a constant. I Have a constant speed motor, and the end restrictor will be set to allow a 40lb pressure input on a blank filter, which will show much of nothing drop on the output side.

From there, the filter will be the only change and will see how with all variables eliminated, and this will show the drop between each filter with the same input. The first test was flawed and hopefully this will show us more.

It's great to have such great feed back on where we might be missing the boat here, I do believe we're on the right track now though. Thanks.

[ September 09, 2003, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[dickwells]

Gary Allen "Every conductor has a resistance." and "Trust me...I know what I am talking about"

Well, maybe... You sound like it but you may wish to do a little search on the subject of superconductors (not that it is germain to this discussion). I know that they have induced a current in a circular superconductor and it was still going around much later without any added current. The physicists at Argonne basically call it "loss free".

 

[MolaKule]

"As for excell file, great suggestion but I have a better idea. Once done, I'm going to develope its own web page so the reference can be found in one section from start to finish. I'm starting over and going to do the measurment of flow as well as pressure drops.

I'm not sure that I want to go into hot oil tests but I think that using standard ambient temps would/could still show some picture on how the filter reacts. The idea is to show what a real engine is faced with, thus using a standard engine oil pump, and a standard 10w30 oil pump with normal temps a real car would see. To, put an oil up to temp would be great but too many problems lye in respect to safety and consistancy."


That's great Bob. I still think this experiment is not only practical, but has scientific merit as well, since you're doing repeatability tests.

 

[greencrew]

"The only resistance change to show the drop across any filters will be that of the filter itself only. All variables will be a constant. I Have a constant speed motor, and the end restrictor will be set to allow a 40lb pressure input on a blank filter, which will show much of nothing drop on the output side."

Bob, I read this a few times trying to understand it. As I understand it, you are setting 40psi at the end of the hose where it goes back into the tank. Once you get it set to 40 pounds you'll leave it at that setting. Is this correct? If so, it's an interesting solution that I had not thought of. The end restrictor would represent the engine ports that don't change.

Also, do you plan to measure the rate of flow? You mentioned the gpm that you expect to see. I would like to see flow. This point, from you link above on how an oil pump works, sticks out in my mind.

"If we used a flow meter instead of a pressure gauge, we would see a gradual increase in flow as the bearing clearances increase with wear. But flow meters are more expensive and more bulky than oil pressure switches, making this method impractical."

 

[Ken2]

Hot oil burns worse than hot water. The oil doesn't run off the skin as quickly and burns deeper.

What cool oil would have a viscosity similar to hot engine oil?...half ATF and half kerosene? It would probably be close enough for our purposes. We're not interested in absolute data, just relative data.


Ken

 

[Brian Barnhart]

For the Electrical Geeks among us, here's a simplified electrical schematic analogous (I think) to Bob's oil filter test stand.

http://bjbarnhart.tripod.com/oil_circuit.jpg
copy and paste in address bar to see the diagram

V is the Oil Pump (and motor and power supply)
Z1 is the Oil Pump pressure relief valve
R1 is the restriction of the pipe between pump and oil filter inlet
R2 is the restriction of the oil filter
Z2 is the oil filter bypass valve (if equipped)
R3 is the restriction of the pipe between oil filter outlet and flow control valve
R4 is the restriction of the flow control valve (adjustable shut-off valve?)
The ground represents the open top bucket containing oil
VM1 is the pressure gauge at the oil filter inlet
VM2 is the pressure gauge at the oil filter outlet

At the flow rates involved, I think R1 and R3 are negligible and can be assumed to be 0.

Hope you can see the picture.

[ September 09, 2003, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

greencrew,

That is correct, the port setting at the end of the hose will be set with a incoming pressure of 40psi. I have a blank empty filter that allows oil to flow in and right out with no drop so the pump is seeing the 40psi as well in this setup.

The only way to measure the gpm that I have is by dumping into another bucket, then measuring it out into a measuring cup(4qt at a time) before recycling back into the pump bucket. I plan on running each one exactly 1 min each. That reminds me, gota get a stop watch.

This measurement is what will take the longest part of our test.

Ken,
I do not plan on changing or mixing the oil. The idea is to have what any engine will have. a multi viscosity oil. When that engine starts/test starts, it's going to see the same thing it would see if it was in your driveway. The only way to establish without a hot oil bucket would be to get such a fluid as you stated that was alread qualified as a 30wt hot, but I do not have those resources so the next best thing is to use what any engine would use. Best I can do. Sorry.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

---

you may wish to do a little search on the subject of superconductors

---

I'm not going to say that they were in their infancy when I first heard of them (just out of school) ...but when I did ..the current research was heading toward ultra fast cpu's/semiconductors (totally theoretical since the IBM 8088 was "state of the art" at the time). The superconductor's cryogenically cooled properties having the distinction of becoming more conductive as they are "super cooled" ...radically different than the normal increase in resistance that we see in regular conductors.

I believe that lead was one such element that increased in conductance when super cooled....


Anyway ...


Bob ...this is a great little workshop that we're having here. If you would be in need of any fittings (ball valves, els, tees, etc.) in the creation of a "manifold station" ...let me know the sizes (some may have to be larger due to availability - but that shouldn't create a problem as long as we balance everything). Someone may have already offered such material support ...but this thread is VERY LONG and complete reading of it in entirety is beyond my capability

Oh ..and nothing but the best ...either stainless steel or, as a good second choice, brass.

[ September 10, 2003, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Thanks Gary, I think we're already set, just a second pair of hands and time to do it.

I agree, I'll be creating a new topic on the new updated test and start freash. enjoyed it.
bob

 

[speedybenz]

What about some of the Stainless Steel oil filters I see for Dirt bikes, ATV's etc. They seem like a very good alternative to a paper filter.

Now we need to get K&P filters to send a filter to you for testing.

Jeff