BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted By: pscholte
Rod Bearings is great in concert...that gravelly voice of his is a winner!

This one time, he was the opening act for Motörhead... or was it Midnight Oil? I forget...
 
I think your first choice is correct. that was after Roller Cambindo quit touring with him
 
Just an fyi...The new M cars which all have turbos do NOT take the 10w60 but the regular LL01 oils like the rest of the BMW fleet.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Interestingly enough, I'm looking at the US owner's manual of a 2013 M5, and read the following:

Quote:
Viscosity grades for engine oils
When selecting an engine oil, ensure that the engine oil belongs to the viscosity grade SAE 0W-30 or SAE 0W-40 or malfunctions or engine damage may occur.
Alternatively, also engine oils with viscosity grades SAE 5W-30 or SAE 5W-40 may be used
The engine oil quality is critical for the life of the
engine.
Some types of oils in some cases are not available in all countries.

Approved oil types
Specification
ACEA A3/B4
API SK/CF or superior grade specification


Strangely no mention of LL-01 spec. And API SK? What is that? There never was such a thing.
smile.gif




You'll find LL01 on the website. Interestingly they added Castrol Edge OE 5w30 as suitable for the S54, S62, S65, S85.


Please ignore this.post
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: dparm
We've discussed the OP's question tons of times. It was done, in part, to remedy oil consumption and to provide maximum protection for the extreme uses (high-speed runs, racing).

Modern 5w40s are proving to be just as capable, hence the move away from TWS.

Right.

Also the FF on M series engines for which the 10W-60 grade is still specified is only a 30wt oil so for normal use the engine doesn't actually require anything heavier.
For street use a 0W/5W-40 is all you need and even for occasional track use if you oil temp's are kept under control. It is only under some pretty extreme racing conditions where oil temp's may approach 300F. Most owners rarely see oil temp's even exceed 212F.



I'll have mine on track next weekend and will report back on your oil temp speculation.
smile.gif



Say what track do you go to? Autobahn Country Club is ALOT of fun in Joliet
 
It's common knowledge that all the new turbo M cars are spec'ed regular 5W30 Castrol oil, Mobil 1 0W40 too!

Lots of M3 V8 engines have failed despite 10W60 being used as the only fill, and looks like insufficient crankshaft bearing clearance has to do with it, it's one of the hottest topics at m3post.com.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892838
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
It's common knowledge that all the new turbo M cars are spec'ed regular 5W30 Castrol oil, Mobil 1 0W40 too!

Lots of M3 V8 engines have failed despite 10W60 being used as the only fill, and looks like insufficient crankshaft bearing clearance has to do with it, it's one of the hottest topics at m3post.com.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892838



I wouldn't say lots...it seems to only hit the very early ones.

Anyways, I have a BMW EVP warranty out to early 2017/100k, so if it happens, it happens.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Castrol and BMW had established a partnership around 2000, when the E46 M3 was introduced. One of the things Castrol brought to the partnership was their 10w-60 oil, which had been developed in racing. They were planning to cooperate with BMW to adapt that oil for M cars.

Then, M3s started having rod bearing issues, so BMW introduced a number of changes to the engine. That's when they took the opportunity to switch from BMW's 5w-30 synthetic (also custom-made by Castrol) to the new 10w-60 oil.

By that time, Castrol and BMW had developed the 10w-60 into a specialty product; Castrol tweaked it for BMW, and BMW designed its M engines with that oil in mind. That's why later M cars with high-revving (>8,000 RPM) engines started requiring the 10w-60 as well.

More recently, BMW's M cars stopped coming with high-revving naturally aspirated engines, and gradually switched to lower-revving turbocharged engines. With that change, they switched back to the 5w-30.

As for why any BMW engines ever used the 10w-60, oil temperatures are probably the main reason. BMW M cars are designed to run on race tracks all day, even in the hottest temperatures. In those conditions, oil temps on the high-RPM engines can exceed 300º F. It's crucially important to have an oil that doesn't thin out too much at those temps. Also, as I said earlier, the specific 10w-60 that BMW uses is a custom-made product, so it has (supposedly) the perfect blend of base stocks and additives for the cars that spec it.



Umm....Castrol and BMW had been working together since the 70's, and I think 10W-60 was introduced even before then.


One of the biggest problems I've seen with the S54, and this is from a local BMW performance shop thats torn down a now significant number of used engines that dyno'd and compression/leakdown tested poorly, is that these M engines, ALL of them, need to be warmed sufficiently before being driven hard. These engines should NOT be daily driven engines, to the store and back, short-trip driving, etc. They're designed for the open road, and the track, to sustain high-load, high-temp use.
 
Last edited:
TWS 10w-60 did emerge from a long line of development starting in the '70s IIRC. This is according to BITOG's own Doug Hillary. It wasn't introduced for road cars until the E46 M3.

Point taken on the long-standing partnership between Castrol and BMW. My understanding is that the partnership got closer around the year 2000.
 
Hi,
KenO - you said this:

"Umm....Castrol and BMW had been working together since the 70's, and I think 10W-60 was introduced even before then."

I have some knowledge of this. The forerunner of the original ester based 10W-60 was in fact Castrol Formula R synthetic 15W-50 (API SE). Red in colour and with the distinctive "Castrol R ester" exhaust aroma it was available outside of Germany in the 1970s. I field tested R in a wide variety of petrol/diesel engines

The original German development team for Formula R are now dead. According to my Castrol (BMW engine development team) contacts at the 24hr at the Nurburgring in 2010 I may be the last man standing with such product knowledge - I must be old!!!!
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
KenO - you said this:

"Umm....Castrol and BMW had been working together since the 70's, and I think 10W-60 was introduced even before then."

I have some knowledge of this. The forerunner of the original ester based 10W-60 was in fact Castrol Formula R synthetic 15W-50 (API SE). Red in colour and with the distinctive "Castrol R ester" exhaust aroma it was available outside of Germany in the 1970s. I field tested R in a wide variety of petrol/diesel engines

The original German development team for Formula R are now dead. According to my Castrol (BMW engine development team) contacts at the 24hr at the Nurburgring in 2010 I may be the last man standing with such product knowledge - I must be old!!!!




There he is! Thanks for the insight! Was BMW partnered with Castrol on the 10W-60 program in earlier years as well?? It was used in some of the BMW Group B, M1, and other racecars, wasn't it??
 
Hi,
KenO - The BMW Castrol collaboration probably commenced seriously during the early-mid 1990s.

As I understand it the surviving 10W-60 formulation was commandeered by BMW. From 1999 just before BP took over Castrol the deal with BMW was in operation and was later confirmed by the new BP-Castrol organisation

Of course BMW also use third party organisations to explore various engine technologies - Castrol is involved with these developments

Castrol was a very strong supplier to German Industry in the 1930s and this was the period when many synthetic lubricant formulations were tried and tested - by Castrol and Shell in Germany and some other German lubricant Manufacturers

Most German vehicle Manufacturers have more that on source of FF lubricant supply, most have more than one Technical collaboration arrangement

Today BP-Castrol have alliances with a number of Vehicle/Engine Manufacturers

Perhaps the most enlightening (from my perspective) was the R20 synthetic race lubricant developed (with Mercedes-Benz) for use the Mercedes-Benz race cars during the 1950s
I have a long period of familiarity with these vehicles

My brother raced motorbikes so I was brought up with the smell of Castrol R from about 10 years of age
 
Doug you're not getting old, you've just got a great memory!

If that original Castrol Formula R Synthetic 15W-50 (a castor oil/syn blend I presume) was still available I'd be using it in my Europa for the aroma alone!

I don't know of any formulator that is using veg' oils to make PCMOs that is using castor oil. I do know that there are some two stroke oils that are still castor and castor/syn based.
My memory of using Castrol R was that it wasn't miscible with mineral oil and even didn't mix well in gasoline; would settle out if not regularly agitated.
 
Originally Posted By: KenO
d00df00d said:
Castrol and BMW had established a partnership around 2000, when the E46 M3 was introduced. One of the things Castrol brought to the partnership was their 10w-60 oil, which had been developed in racing. They were planning to cooperate with BMW to adapt that oil for M cars.

Then, M3s started having rod bearing issues, so BMW introduced a number of changes to the engine. That's when they took the opportunity to switch from BMW's 5w-30 synthetic (also custom-made by Castrol) to the new 10w-60 oil.

By that time, Castrol and BMW had developed the 10w-60 into a specialty product; Castrol tweaked it for BMW, and BMW designed its M engines with that oil in mind. That's why later M cars with high-revving (>8,000 RPM) engines started requiring the 10w-60 as

One of the biggest problems I've seen with the S54, and this is from a local BMW performance shop thats torn down a now significant number of used engines that dyno'd and compression/leakdown tested poorly, is that these M engines, ALL of them, need to be warmed sufficiently before being driven hard. These engines should NOT be daily driven engines, to the store and back, short-trip driving, etc. They're designed for the open road, and the track, to sustain high-load, high-temp use.


My S54 has a redline short of 8000RPM and warm up procedures were always followed. Using TWS and had to change Rod bearings at 60,000 miles of normal ( not track day ) driving.

Think I would have done better on 5W-30? Should I use it now?
 
"Normal driving" is one of the worst things you can do with an S54, no matter how gently you warm it up.

If you're not going to drive it as it was meant to be driven, switching to a BMW-approved 5w-30 might help.

Again, make sure it meets the right specs per BMW. Don't just pick up any synthetic 5w-30 and expect it to work -- most won't.
 
Originally Posted By: ammolab
Originally Posted By: KenO
d00df00d said:
Castrol and BMW had established a partnership around 2000, when the E46 M3 was introduced. One of the things Castrol brought to the partnership was their 10w-60 oil, which had been developed in racing. They were planning to cooperate with BMW to adapt that oil for M cars.

Then, M3s started having rod bearing issues, so BMW introduced a number of changes to the engine. That's when they took the opportunity to switch from BMW's 5w-30 synthetic (also custom-made by Castrol) to the new 10w-60 oil.

By that time, Castrol and BMW had developed the 10w-60 into a specialty product; Castrol tweaked it for BMW, and BMW designed its M engines with that oil in mind. That's why later M cars with high-revving (>8,000 RPM) engines started requiring the 10w-60 as

One of the biggest problems I've seen with the S54, and this is from a local BMW performance shop thats torn down a now significant number of used engines that dyno'd and compression/leakdown tested poorly, is that these M engines, ALL of them, need to be warmed sufficiently before being driven hard. These engines should NOT be daily driven engines, to the store and back, short-trip driving, etc. They're designed for the open road, and the track, to sustain high-load, high-temp use.


My S54 has a redline short of 8000RPM and warm up procedures were always followed. Using TWS and had to change Rod bearings at 60,000 miles of normal ( not track day ) driving.

Think I would have done better on 5W-30? Should I use it now?



What year S54 did you have by chance? Early cars were going to fail no matter what. I've heard a few claims, from fuel dilution (all S54 cars that got bearing recalls had their PCM's reprogrammed at the same time), to wrong oil, to improper bearing specs or manufacturer processes for the bearings themselves.


Originally Posted By: d00df00d
"Normal driving" is one of the worst things you can do with an S54, no matter how gently you warm it up.

If you're not going to drive it as it was meant to be driven, switching to a BMW-approved 5w-30 might help.

Again, make sure it meets the right specs per BMW. Don't just pick up any synthetic 5w-30 and expect it to work -- most won't.



This. Get them up to temp (oil temp) and beat the [censored] out of them. It's what they were built for. It probably WOULD run better if you tracked it.
 
Last edited:
Hi,
CATERHAM - The Castrol Formula R 15W-50 containers had the following "qualifier";

"Castrol Formula R Synthetic will mix with conventional oils, but the enthusiast wanting an advanced lubricant would not be interested in contaminating this superior lubricant"

In Japan about 1982 I spoke with the Kubota Engine development Engineering team about using Formula R 15W-50 in their small high speed 3cyl diesel engines. They unanimously advised against it. I carried on my tests in OZ anyway and had these great little engines doing 3000hr OCIs on Formula R. These engines were fitted to truck refrigeration units and were trouble free during their life

The original R30 and R40 were non-miscible, you are correct

Mercedes-Benz sure struck new ground with R20 in the 1950s!!!!

Last year at Goodwood I asked the factory "Engineers"(Benz had three or four Silver Arrows cars there) what they were using - they didn't know - "That was a Museum decision" - was the answer
 
Thicker oil can also help avoid consuming additional scarce space under the hood for heat exchangers to keep the oil cool. My Subaru manual specifies 5-30 but also advises thicker oil in extreme conditions.
 
Your comments remind me that engine manufacturers are not always deeply informed on lubricants. Typically, they know what works well and what is commercially available. But testing engines on a wide variety of lubricants is costly and probably unnecessary for most engine uses. In actual usage history, most engines will last over several new cycles of oil specifications.
 
Originally Posted By: marvinlee
Thicker oil can also help avoid consuming additional scarce space under the hood for heat exchangers to keep the oil cool.

All of the M cars that spec 10w-60 also have oil coolers.
smile.gif
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top