Counter-intuitive thought on temp & visc.

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I agree with Terry 100% on this one ....

Manufacturers viscosity/temp recommendations are typically based on the use of average and even below average quality lubes. I've been running 5w-30/10w-30 and now 0w-30 synthetics in VW/Audi engines for 18 years and approx 400k total miles with excellent results. Five years of these years were spent in the CA desert near Edwards AFB and the last thirteen have been in Georgia and Alabama. My thinking was that the low viscosity synlube would run cooler and be more stable under high temp/high shear rate conditions. So you could go one SAE grade thinner than what was recommended with conventional oils. It turns out this works exactly as predicted ....

The oil pressure gauge in my Audi 100 would peg the needle @ 5 bar/74 psi with the Amsoil 10w-30 synthetic at anything over 3000 rpms. Oil pressure much higher than that is wasted, as the oil pressure relief valve in the engine will open and shunt oil back to the pan.

Up until several years ago, a 15w-40 conventional oil was the thinnest viscosity German manufacturers would recommend for hot weather use. Porsche was the first to deviate from this and started producing a second viscosity/temp chart for synthetics in the late 1990's. It' allowed the use of 5w-30 and 10w-30 synthetics for year round use - even in the air cooled 911 engines. Other German manufacturers have followed suit and now 5w-30 and 5w-40, ACEA "A3/B4" quality oils are the most widely specified grades, followed by 0w-30 and 0w-40. My 2002 Audi TT turbo recommends 0w-30 year round, regardless of climate, with 5w-30 and 5w-40 as acceptable options. The current BMW viscosity recommendations look like this:

General: Synthetic oil meeting BMW "Longlife" specifications.

Above -5F: 10w-30/10w-40
All Temps: 0w-20/0w-30/0w-40/5w-20/5w-30/5w-40

If you run the Redline 5w-30 or 10w-30 in your Audi, you'll see about the same oil pressure you do with the M1, 0w-40. The reason is that the high temp/high shear viscosities of these oils is about the same. Towards the end of the drain interval, I'd actually expect the oil pressure with the 5w-30/10w-30 Redline to be a bit higher, since it's very shear stable ....

TooSlick
 
Let me address all of your replies in one post.
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TooSlick,
Ever since the warranty ran out at 50k miles, I have been doing oil changes between 7500 and 10k miles. I drive my car usually long distance, and I'm comfortable with that oil change interval.
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Dr.T,
The chart is confusing because VW calls synthetic oils "energy conserving" (left column!). The reason is that when that chart was printed, all synthetic oil qualified as energy conserving in Germany. The oils in the right column could be blends, hydrocracked, or dino oils.

You are correct, Audi very much wants to differentiate European oil specs from US specs.
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MolaKule,
Tell me where to find out information on the clearance specs of my engine, and I will try to get them.
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Ken,
Ad 1: According to that chart by Audi, there must have been a 5W-40 non-full synthetic (Valvoline, Pentosin?).

Ad 2: Very good point! That's probably the most confusing thing when going by numbers only, without considering what kind of oil it is.
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Thanks for everyone getting involved here. I didn't think this was going to open a can of worms. Actually, I knew it.
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MolaKule,

I found a few specs for the 2.8 SOHC 12 valve Audi engine (engine code: AFC):

camshaft endplay:
new: 0.0016 to 0.0059 inch (0.04 to 0.15mm)
wear limit: 0.0138 inch (0.35mm)

journal oil clearance in cylinder head: 0.004 inch (0.10mm)

runout: 0.0004 inches (0.001mm)

main bearing oil clearance:
standard: 0.0007 to 0.0018 inch (0.018 to 0.045mm)
service limit: 0.0039 inch (0.10mm)

connecting rod bearing oil clearances:
piston ring side clearance:
standard: 0.0006 to 0.00244 inch (0.015 to 0.062mm)
service limit: 0.0047 inch (0.12mm)
connecting rod side clearance (endplay): 0.0020 to 0.0122 inch (0.05 to 0.31mm)

piston ring end gap:
top compression ring: 0.014 to 0.020 inch (0.35 to 0.50mm)
second compr. ring: 0.020 to 0.028 inch (0.50 to 0.70mm)
oil control ring: 0.0098 to 0.0197 inch (0.25 to 0.50mm)

piston ring side clearance:
top compression ring: 0.0024 to 0.0035 inch (0.06 to 0.09mm)
second compr. ring: 0.0020 to 0.0031 inch (0.05 to 0.08mm)
oil control ring: 0.0012 to 0.003 inch (0.03 to 0.06mm)
 
quote:

Originally posted by moribundman:
As for an oil cooler, my car has an oil cooler. But that's again besides he point. If you're driving in the friggin' desert, that oil cooler won't do much good.
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Sorry, Came in on this late. What do you mean by your oil cooler not working in a desert? I assume your car is moving. (eg not stuck in traffic)
 
Terry,

quote:

Mobil just changed there formula for the second time in 2 years to compensate for this inadequacy.
First by adding moly for the first time ever in their PCMO oils. Then boosting calcium to the 3000 ppm range for increased drains and possibly overbasing for EP assistance.

When did Mobil1 go with more calcium - initial SS or later SS update? Thanks

[ June 21, 2003, 05:19 AM: Message edited by: Fillherup ]
 
No, no, my car has an oil cooler that works, but it's the VW/Audi kind that is between the oil filter and the upper pan.

Anyway, this thread wasn't really about my oil cooler, it was about whether to use thicker oil under high ambient temps, or not. We all seem to have come to the conclusion that with a full synthetic, compared to non-synthetics, shear resistence is not as much a matter of the oil's weight.

I'm also trying to find out how the clearances in my Audi engine compare to other makes.
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The clearances can't be to tight or your engine will seize. Or too loose. Then you will see oil fumes out your tail pipe like a worn out engine. So you should be right in between somewhere moving toward more and more clearance since a engine is always wearing out.

Leo
 
pedaltothemetal,
You are stating the obvious.
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I posted some of the clearance specs A, because MolaKule asked me to, and B, in order to find out how this particular engine stacks up against other motors, because people have by now repeatedly said that maybe the Audi engine has wider clearances, which I do not believe to be true. It's all in the thread.
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Can someone still clarify the chart.

The German translations is:

Column "A" = "more-range-easy-run-oil" (VW 500.00)

Column "B" = "multi-grade oil" (VW 501.01)

How does one get synthetic vs. conventional from this??? To me it seems like there are 2 different VW specs for potentially the same grade..and a different set of rules to play by...eg. one 0-30 may be A3 and the other not. Is this what they were getting at?

But, this assumption is only true for the chart on the left...the right one is still not completely clear. What is the difference between "energy conserving oil" and "multi-grade oil". Can't you have multi-grade oil that is energy conserving???

And finally...what are the differences between the 2 VW specs??
 
And some people (that former API guy who wrote the article on oil change intervals) want to have the automakers here set oil specs like in Europe. NO thanks - our "SL" system may be sub-optimal, but at least the average person should be able to put a reasonably safe oil in their car using it.

If this esteemed group can't get a good handle on the VW chart it's HOSED. Imagine what Klaus in Hamburg is doing right now (I bet scratching his head or making an appointment with the dealer).

Matt, Out.
 
I know I'm jumping in late here ..but this kinda caught my eye.....

quote:

Thinner oils flow at a higher volume than thicker oils at the same temp.

This is a common misconception. An oil pump (the typical vane pump ..I'm unsure of the "crescent" style) is a positive displacement pump. xx volume ...is pumped every revolution. It pumps xx volume cold ..it pumps xx volume hot. It pumps the same volume whether its water or asphalt. The only difference is how much oil is shunted via the pressure relief. After warm up ...this should be NONE (with very few exceptions ..ie mine where I'm up against the pressure relief when I'm off idle = hv pump). So unless you are talking about the oil returning to the pan ...it just ain't so (naturally some obscure exceptions apply). The oil pump puts xxx oil through the engine at xx rpm. Unless there is some magic detour that the heavier oils take ..or some short cut that the thinner oils take ...and you somehow don't run the sump dry I would think a stop watch would still show the same turn around time from one weight to another (at normal operating temp).

Now IF you said that at the same pressure you are getting MORE oil flow from a thinner/lighter weight oil ...I have no agrument.

Now the ability for thinner oils to transfer heat better is still unclear to me. I would say that they react MORE to heat than thicker oils. That is the impact of heat is more apparent. This I haven't been able to equate to heat absorbsion. Has anyone actually done "in and out" temp checks under identical conditions?? The viscosity is not all that much different at operating temp between one oil or the other ...otherwise you would have a TREMENDOUS variance in pressures ...which I've yet to see (cold SURE!!! HOT as in idling in 100 degree weather SURE!! ...but cruising down the road????)
 
Mr. T, Germans commonly call synthetic oil "Leichtlauföl." They also call it "Vollsynthese." You don't have to believe me (I've just lived there for a decade). Go and ask on a German car forum.
 
Mr. T, I have explained the two charts in this thread - if you care to read again. As for the VW/Audi oil specs, those are outdated by now. Currently they have 502.00, 505.00,503.01.
 
Gary, I wasn't exactly talking about "cruising down the road"...
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MolaKule, I posted the oil clearances for you. If you have any thoughts on those, please let us know.
 
What's confusing is that there is no explanation under that chart that explains why different oils with the same or similar viscisities are recommended for different temperature ranges.

Just like many people in the US usually buy and oil that is SJ-rated (or whatever their manual suggests), a European will look on the bottle for the specs the maker of his vehicle suggests. So I don't think it's confusing to "Klaus in Hamburg."


PS: Sorry Dr. T, I called you Mr. T. It was an accident.
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The old German manufacturer charts where based on using the thickest oil that would still allow easy cold weather starting. So they used to recommend 15w-40 down to -15C and 20w-50 down to -10C. Those -15C and -10C numbers happen to be the old SAE J300 standard test temps for those grades.

The 5w-30/10w-30/10w-40 grades used to be relegated to use in cooler weather, generally up to 50F-60F or so.

With the development of better synlubes, all the German car manufacturers are going to the thinner xw-30 and xw-40 grades for year round use.

TooSlick
 
quote:

The old German manufacturer charts where based on using the thickest oil that would still allow easy cold weather

I've come to the same conclusion. That recommendation was for non-sythetic oils, though.

The latest Audi engines require per manual 0W-30, 5W-30, or 5W-40 (all synthetics. That's not much different from the '96 chart for synthetics, which listed 5W-30, 5W-40, 10-30, and 10W-40.

It's also interesting that many German cars come with M1 0W-40 in it. Another popluar OEM fill is supposedly Pentosynth by Pentosin. They offer 0W-30, 5W-50, 5W-40, and 10W-40.

PS: Does anybody have any comment regarding the clearances I've posted for my engine?
 
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