AutoRX and startup wear!

Status
Not open for further replies.
K

kilou

Joined
Jun 2, 2004
Messages
430
Location
Switzerland
Hi,

only a few days until my ARX order arrives
smile.gif
Well in the meantime I have a little doubt concerning how ARX acts with the engine parts. Thanks to this site, I now know that most of the engine wear occurs at startup. Many engine oils are advertised as being somewhat "polar" so that they are able to cling to the cylinder walls and protect on cold start. As far as I remember, ARX is best used with dino oil since ARX itself is a bit polar and dino is less polar than synthetics right so ARX has not to compete for the "polarness", right? I suppose that as ARX cleans the engine, it removes any "oil coating" in the engine too. If it does, wouldn't it be resulting in more engine wear??? This is not too much of a concern for the cleaning phase since it's only 1500 miles but I plan to use the maintenance dose in the future, and then if ARX removes any oil coating prior to each startup, it should cause more engine wear in the long run no?

I know that this is certainly not a problem and I think UOA have shown no additional engine wear when using ARX but I'd just try to understand the basics behind this. How would it be possible to remove oil sludge and cleaning the engine yet leaving an oil coating on cylinder walls to prevent startup wear???

Thanks
 
No. I think you have it wrong when you assume that AutoRX "removes" any oil coating on the engine. After all, it uses engine oil as a carrier, right?

With the hundreds on this board that have used AutoRX I don't think anyone has had a problem with additional startup wear. There have been a few UOA's done during an AutoRX treatment-they don't show any additional startup wear.
 
quote:
Originally posted by dave1251:
Dont use the "polar" oils. They contain ester's Auto-RX use's ester's also. This will intefer with your application.
Click to expand...
Exactly! This is why afaik ARX is not recommended with synthetics. The problem is that (all) synthetics use esther and these are ""polar"" right? If ARX is now more polar compared to the oil you're using (synthetic or dino), it's ARX that will cling to the cylinder wall after shutoff, not the oil! So when you start the next morning the engine should run a few turn on ARX until the oil pressure builds and allow the oil to reach all parts whereas without ARX the "less polar" oil would have "clinged" to the cylinder walls providing a better protection on startup. I'm sure UOA show no problem from ARX use but I'd like to understand why it is not a problem....especially if I use maintenance plan at every oil change because startup wear could be a problem in the long run and would need a serie of UOA to depict a trend.
 
This is why i am gonna do my AutoRX appliation next spring I think. Over the PA winters, I would rather have a bit more protection for my morning startups. I have a 6qt case of Castrol Startup 10w30 I scored for 15.00. I know it has Group V esters in it.

Just an off the wall type question, esters wont make leaky seals any worse will they? I have minor drippings from my front seals, behind one or more of the pulleys.
 
The esters in arx are polar, yes. This polarity is beneficial in PREVENTING start-up wear, not encouraging it. In the US, Castrol advertises "Start-Up" (I believe similar to your Magnatec) on the basis of the "polar molecules" aka esters giving extra start-up protection. It is not undesireable to have arx's esters coat your surfaces.
 
Auto-Rx uses "natural occuring esters" they clean and are removed by rinsing action of non synthetic oil.

Synthetic -Semi Synthetic -High Mileage Oil contain "SYNTHETIC ESTERS" there job is to hold oil to metal.
This is not what you want to rinse out contaminants into your filter.

After rinse is done use any oil you want.
 
quote:
Originally posted by Frank:
Auto-Rx uses "natural occuring esters" they clean and are removed by rinsing action of non synthetic oil.

Synthetic -Semi Synthetic -High Mileage Oil contain "SYNTHETIC ESTERS" there job is to hold oil to metal.
This is not what you want to rinse out contaminants into your filter.

After rinse is done use any oil you want.
Click to expand...
I understand that Frank but if I go for the maintenance plan, I'll have ARX all the time in the engine. If I use synthetic oils with ARX maintenance dose (after the clean and rinse phase of course), will this lower the ability of the synthetic esthers of the oil to hold on the cylinder wall and hence ""increase"" startup wear??? I'm OK to use ARX for cleaning the engine but I'd be cautious if using the maintenance dose with each oil change after may prevent the oil from holding on the cylinder wall. Could you please clarify this point??
 
I think this is more of a how do you keep your oil in your motor question as opposed to a more start up were question. If you have a bottom filter you are ok no matter what, but if you have a side filter you need to use a filter with a good quality ABDV valve which will keep the most oil in the engine on startup. If there's oil deep inside the motor it will be protected at startup wether or not there's ARX in there.
 
I'd think for startup wear the problem is more in the upper engine since the oil has to come from the sump up around the valves etc. If there is no remanent oil coating due to ARX on these parts when you first crank the engine, this may cause some additional wear and if this situation occurs at every startup when using ARX maintenance dose, the wear may end to be significant over time, no matter where the filter is located.

Again this is not an affirmation but only a reflexion. I do not know what happens to the oil coating with ARX and I certainly do not assume that ARX causes increased wear. I'd just understand how things work. I only base my thoughts on the fact that ARX is polar and thus cling to the metal parts. Esters in synthetic oils are meant to do the same for lubrication purposes so if ARX do that too without having the same lubrication properties than an oil, then I would assume more wear. Of course I do not speak about ARX cleaning or rinsing phases because their purpose is different. But when using ARX maintenance dose, this shouldn't affect the ability of the oil to prevent startup wear and shouldn't hence prevent the oil from clinging to the cylinder wall. I'd say if it does I'd prefer doing ARX full treatments every 50,000km or so rather than going with the maintenance dose at every OC.

Some light on this problem would be more than appreciated.
 
I think that you will find if you do a search on here you will find that ARX contains several kinds of esters, one that is actually the ester that does most of the cleaning. IIRC, the other 2 are specifically for enhanced lubrication during the cleaning and rinsing. I can say with full confidence and through experience on several cars that ARX will cause no harm or decreased lubrication on cold startup during a cleaning application or with a maintenance dose. I noticed nothing but better engine performance while it was in my engines. I never went as far as trending wear metals with oil analysis, just feel and sound. It did increase compression on a couple cars that had been neglected.
 
I found this sentence from Frank on another thread:

"If you go to Auto-Rx Maintenance Plan you can use synthetic oil as Auto-Rx will keep synthetic esters from adhering oil to metal."

Source:http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=004542#000021

So basically that doesn't sound very good to me: if Auto-RX keeps synthetic esters from adhering oil to metal, startup wear must be higher...at least this is how I understand this. Now as bmwtechguy stated, ARX contains 2 other esters that are meant for lubrication purposes.....but are these sticking to metal (only synthetic esters are suposed to be polar and those of ARX are naturally occuring esters right?) and if so would they be effective for standard OCI of 10-15k km?????

Currently 150km into the first clean phase with ARX.....
 
quote:
Originally posted by BrianWC:
They are all polar or they wouldn't do any cleaning.
Click to expand...
Do they lubricate as well as those from the oil and hence protect as much from startup wear?
 
What doesn't sound good ? keeping synthetic esters from holding the oil and what ever dirt etc accumulated in said oil to the metal?

You seem to want to check every nuance than put your own spin on what was said.

There is no start up wear if oil can lubricate all the engine rotating parts. In fact Auto-Rx cleaned engines will over 25,000 miles have better extended "MTBF" and if you go on Auto-Rx Maintenace Plan the "MTBF" extends much more miles.
 
I just try to understand why preventing the oil from sticking to the metal would be beneficial in the long run. I understand that this "feature" is needed for the cleaning and obviously rinse phases which cover a couple of thousand miles only, not like running the maintenance dose continuously.

I'm for sure over cautious (and certainly boring too...) but if oils are made to cling to metal, there is probably a reason. All those oils like Magnetec etc are advertising this as a feature to prevent startup wear because even with a 100% clean engine and the best "not polar" oil, the oil is not able to reach every part of the engine on the first revolutions. If now ARX prevent these oils from achieving this action, I find legitimate to ask whether ARX maintenance dose + synthetic oil at each oil change would achieve the same startup wear protection compared to synthetic oil only. And more importantly if it does, why would it be so? Because the key point here is that apparently ARX prevents a designed feature of synthetic oils (clinging to metal) from working "as advertised"...(remember that my question concerns the maintenance plan only, not cleaning or rinse phase......I currently have ARX in my sump since 200km).

My goal is only to understand, not to throw doubts on the efficiency of ARX.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Howe
Barium and Dioctyl as anti wear and/or friction reducer
Replies
8
Views
1K
Howe
FTTSHO
  • Locked
Marvel Mystery Oil fixed my compression and misfire issue
5 6 7
Replies
127
Views
13K
MolaKule
A
Chemtool B12 in Oil
Replies
13
Views
2K
nicholas
F
  • Locked
Top End & Oil Ring Cleaner?
Replies
15
Views
4K
panthermike
O
OK i'm as dumb as a doorknob and i need help understanding additive claims of "bonding with the metal"
Replies
4
Views
1K
MolaKule
Back
Top