Clevy said:
So called "top tier" gas more a gimmick??
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Supply of what? Gas? Additives? Inspectors?
Originally Posted By: Garak
Supply of what? Gas? Additives? Inspectors?
Review the thread topic. Try to keep up.
Supply of what? Gas? Additives? Inspectors?
Review the thread topic. Try to keep up.
I am keeping up. I'm needling you because you aren't being clear. Low gas supply has nothing to do with the ability of stations to add their own additives. As has already been shown in testing, just because several stations get gas from one refinery doesn't mean they all have the exact same additives or additive levels. Then again, patents are part of the conspiracy, right?
Garak said:
Originally Posted By: Maximus1966
Well...after 30 years of business at the retail level I can say I've never seen additives added at a station. Nor have I seen a station get product directly from a refinery. Maybe it works differently up north? I'm thinking that maybe if you have never worked in the industry you have no idea what you are talking about. Or have you? I can assure you that from a retailer's perspective, when shortages or tightening of supplies of product occur, additives are the last thing on their minds or on their distributor's minds. Some folks just can't seem to grasp the concept of gasoline being a fungible commodity, unlike motor oil. Are there differences? Sure. Are those differences predictable & significant? Probably not.
Did you own a large brand's franchise that is on the top tier list?
The reason I ask is I have heard a lot of stories about tanker putting additive in for each tank they deliver based on the order they get, or the station owner adding additives from their brand as part of the franchise contract.
I would imagine that makes more sense as the large brand (i.e. Chevron, Shell, 76, Costco, etc) could get sued in class action if this is intentionally violated or not enforced.
Now if you talk about Quick Stop, Rotten Robbie type of mom and pop station that get whatever locally approved gas from the lowest bidder, I agree with you, but then again I've never seen a top tier label on any of these station anyways. All of the top tier are large national brands as far as I can see.
Well...after 30 years of business at the retail level I can say I've never seen additives added at a station. Nor have I seen a station get product directly from a refinery. Maybe it works differently up north? I'm thinking that maybe if you have never worked in the industry you have no idea what you are talking about. Or have you? I can assure you that from a retailer's perspective, when shortages or tightening of supplies of product occur, additives are the last thing on their minds or on their distributor's minds. Some folks just can't seem to grasp the concept of gasoline being a fungible commodity, unlike motor oil. Are there differences? Sure. Are those differences predictable & significant? Probably not.
Did you own a large brand's franchise that is on the top tier list?
The reason I ask is I have heard a lot of stories about tanker putting additive in for each tank they deliver based on the order they get, or the station owner adding additives from their brand as part of the franchise contract.
I would imagine that makes more sense as the large brand (i.e. Chevron, Shell, 76, Costco, etc) could get sued in class action if this is intentionally violated or not enforced.
Now if you talk about Quick Stop, Rotten Robbie type of mom and pop station that get whatever locally approved gas from the lowest bidder, I agree with you, but then again I've never seen a top tier label on any of these station anyways. All of the top tier are large national brands as far as I can see.
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Originally Posted By: Maximus1966
Well...after 30 years of business at the retail level I can say I've never seen additives added at a station. Nor have I seen a station get product directly from a refinery. Maybe it works differently up north? I'm thinking that maybe if you have never worked in the industry you have no idea what you are talking about. Or have you?
Gasoline is a relatively homogeneous product, but not completely. And up here, there are differences. I do know a number of people in the industry. In fact, I work very closely with former SOPUS and Imperial Oil (our XOM) distributors and a current Imperial Oil distributor, and used to be in close contact with a Petro-Canada distributor. One of the companies I own provides consulting, installation, and repair services to almost every major retail level gas station (and many independents) between Toronto and Vancouver.
Due to a refinery issue up here, Petro-Canada stations in this city were short on fuel for a time. Their preference was to close one station, then move onto rolling closures, before purchasing fuel from another company. They didn't even bother increasing the price and they pretty much successfully avoided purchasing fuel from other sources.
Other oil companies do share refinery capacity and some transport. However, the Top Tier retailers (and other biggies) seem to do much on their own. By that, I mean, a Flying J truck will fill Shells only with respect to Top Tier/big names, and a few independents. And if you think the Shell gas is identical (at least with respect to additive package) that the independents here get from the Flying J truck, you're mistaken. I've driven enough fuel-sensitive vehicles for enough miles to know there is a significant difference. A new station with new tanks is not always enough. It helps, but it's not the only thing. That's not to say a Top Tier station can't have bad tanks, either. However, I've been stung by the majors only twice in all my years of driving, but several times at the small independents, even though I avoid them unless absolutely necessary.
And up here, where there is an actual refinery in this city, I assure you that direct deliveries do occur. More accurately, they're as direct as is possible, with the distribution office and the tanker filling equipment right on the grounds, and I tankers leave there every day I go by.
I wasn't suggesting that the manager was adding additives at the station, and I do not pretend to know how additives get into the gasoline. I assume there is more than one way this occurs. When a Petro-Canada truck is serving only Petro-Canada station after Petro-Canada station and only those branded stations, it's obvious that the retailer need not do that, at least in that case. I also have enough experience to know that even a small delivery truck has enough compartments for at least three varieties of gasoline and two varieties of diesel, depending upon local taxation regimes. That's completely ignoring avgas and marina blends.
Now, consider the study that was posted here some time ago showing different detergent levels in different Top Tier stations, and other stations, as well. If it's all the same gas in a market, that shouldn't occur. Then we have Costco in the States speaking of providing extra additives on demand for a fee.
Beyond that, up here, our ethanol regulation allows some pretty significant blending differences in premium fuel. Petro-Canada, Shell, and Esso (all Top Tier) claim no ethanol in their premium, as does the Co-op (non Top Tier). Husky/Mohawk (non Top Tier) offers two levels of premium. The 91 octane stuff seems to be ethanol free, whereas their 93 is a blend. Incidentally, that company has been doing their own thing with ethanol content long before the government got involved and long before anyone else up here considered adding it to gasoline. They specifically advertised and offered E-10 when no one else was doing it.
So, oil companies have patents on certain additives. There is a refinery here that does direct deliveries. One company was doing their own ethanol blending before the government even thought of getting involved. Another company virtually refused to buy gasoline from other entities. Some gasoline runs very poorly in my experience, even when it's ostensibly been delivered by the Shell distribution network. That's all pretty remarkable for a completely homogeneous commodity, isn't it?
Well...after 30 years of business at the retail level I can say I've never seen additives added at a station. Nor have I seen a station get product directly from a refinery. Maybe it works differently up north? I'm thinking that maybe if you have never worked in the industry you have no idea what you are talking about. Or have you?
Gasoline is a relatively homogeneous product, but not completely. And up here, there are differences. I do know a number of people in the industry. In fact, I work very closely with former SOPUS and Imperial Oil (our XOM) distributors and a current Imperial Oil distributor, and used to be in close contact with a Petro-Canada distributor. One of the companies I own provides consulting, installation, and repair services to almost every major retail level gas station (and many independents) between Toronto and Vancouver.
Due to a refinery issue up here, Petro-Canada stations in this city were short on fuel for a time. Their preference was to close one station, then move onto rolling closures, before purchasing fuel from another company. They didn't even bother increasing the price and they pretty much successfully avoided purchasing fuel from other sources.
Other oil companies do share refinery capacity and some transport. However, the Top Tier retailers (and other biggies) seem to do much on their own. By that, I mean, a Flying J truck will fill Shells only with respect to Top Tier/big names, and a few independents. And if you think the Shell gas is identical (at least with respect to additive package) that the independents here get from the Flying J truck, you're mistaken. I've driven enough fuel-sensitive vehicles for enough miles to know there is a significant difference. A new station with new tanks is not always enough. It helps, but it's not the only thing. That's not to say a Top Tier station can't have bad tanks, either. However, I've been stung by the majors only twice in all my years of driving, but several times at the small independents, even though I avoid them unless absolutely necessary.
And up here, where there is an actual refinery in this city, I assure you that direct deliveries do occur. More accurately, they're as direct as is possible, with the distribution office and the tanker filling equipment right on the grounds, and I tankers leave there every day I go by.
I wasn't suggesting that the manager was adding additives at the station, and I do not pretend to know how additives get into the gasoline. I assume there is more than one way this occurs. When a Petro-Canada truck is serving only Petro-Canada station after Petro-Canada station and only those branded stations, it's obvious that the retailer need not do that, at least in that case. I also have enough experience to know that even a small delivery truck has enough compartments for at least three varieties of gasoline and two varieties of diesel, depending upon local taxation regimes. That's completely ignoring avgas and marina blends.
Now, consider the study that was posted here some time ago showing different detergent levels in different Top Tier stations, and other stations, as well. If it's all the same gas in a market, that shouldn't occur. Then we have Costco in the States speaking of providing extra additives on demand for a fee.
Beyond that, up here, our ethanol regulation allows some pretty significant blending differences in premium fuel. Petro-Canada, Shell, and Esso (all Top Tier) claim no ethanol in their premium, as does the Co-op (non Top Tier). Husky/Mohawk (non Top Tier) offers two levels of premium. The 91 octane stuff seems to be ethanol free, whereas their 93 is a blend. Incidentally, that company has been doing their own thing with ethanol content long before the government got involved and long before anyone else up here considered adding it to gasoline. They specifically advertised and offered E-10 when no one else was doing it.
So, oil companies have patents on certain additives. There is a refinery here that does direct deliveries. One company was doing their own ethanol blending before the government even thought of getting involved. Another company virtually refused to buy gasoline from other entities. Some gasoline runs very poorly in my experience, even when it's ostensibly been delivered by the Shell distribution network. That's all pretty remarkable for a completely homogeneous commodity, isn't it?
Originally Posted By: Garak
...That's all pretty remarkable for a completely homogeneous commodity, isn't it?
Sorry that you still confused. It seems that you don't see the difference between a fungible commodity and a homogeneous one. Look them up, then report back.
...That's all pretty remarkable for a completely homogeneous commodity, isn't it?
Sorry that you still confused. It seems that you don't see the difference between a fungible commodity and a homogeneous one. Look them up, then report back.
Originally Posted By: Garak
..supply has nothing to do with the ability of stations to add their own additives...
You didn't "suggest" it, you presented it as fact.
..supply has nothing to do with the ability of stations to add their own additives...
You didn't "suggest" it, you presented it as fact.
OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: Maximus1966
Originally Posted By: Garak
..supply has nothing to do with the ability of stations to add their own additives...
You didn't "suggest" it, you presented it as fact.
I think he's speaking as to the separation between the two topics, not trying to be obtuse. He's not saying the stations add additives, but simply that it isn't relevant to what you two are discussing.
And to answer your question, yes, I think gasoline is regulated differently up here than it is in the states. When I worked at an Irving when I was going to school the only tankers to EVER come to the station were Irving ones. Same situation with the Esso next door.
And Irving, like Petro Canada, is one of the companies that does refinery-sourced deliveries like Garak mentioned. They are a maritime family success story so we covered them in history class when I was going to school out there, pretty interesting actually. AFAIK, Imperial Oil operates the same way. They have a refinery near Halifax that covers maritime distribution.
Originally Posted By: Garak
..supply has nothing to do with the ability of stations to add their own additives...
You didn't "suggest" it, you presented it as fact.
I think he's speaking as to the separation between the two topics, not trying to be obtuse. He's not saying the stations add additives, but simply that it isn't relevant to what you two are discussing.
And to answer your question, yes, I think gasoline is regulated differently up here than it is in the states. When I worked at an Irving when I was going to school the only tankers to EVER come to the station were Irving ones. Same situation with the Esso next door.
And Irving, like Petro Canada, is one of the companies that does refinery-sourced deliveries like Garak mentioned. They are a maritime family success story so we covered them in history class when I was going to school out there, pretty interesting actually. AFAIK, Imperial Oil operates the same way. They have a refinery near Halifax that covers maritime distribution.
Originally Posted By: flinter
Ethanol Free gas is NOT available anywhere in NJ!
boy, that would suck. For people in your situation, ive always wondered, how do you get gas for your chainsaws, lawn mowers, 4 wheelers and other things that shouldnt get ethanol? drive out of state, or just use it anyways?
Ethanol Free gas is NOT available anywhere in NJ!
boy, that would suck. For people in your situation, ive always wondered, how do you get gas for your chainsaws, lawn mowers, 4 wheelers and other things that shouldnt get ethanol? drive out of state, or just use it anyways?
Originally Posted By: Maximus1966
Sorry that you still confused. It seems that you don't see the difference between a fungible commodity and a homogeneous one. Look them up, then report back.
Take a first year economics class and you report back. #1 Wheat in Canada is a completely homogeneous or completely fungible commodity. Gasoline is close, but there is at the very minimum, even if gas was all the same, brand differentiation.
Originally Posted By: Mximus1966
You didn't "suggest" it, you presented it as fact.
My point was that a station can have additives added at various levels. They can be added at the refinery if the refinery is the same brand as the retail location. The station can have them added in the delivery chain. They can be added at delivery time. They can be added at the pumps as per Costco USA.
If you feel that gasoline is all the same, feel free to use the cheapest gas you can find, or if it's all the same price, use whatever independent floats your boat. I won't be joining you.
Sorry that you still confused. It seems that you don't see the difference between a fungible commodity and a homogeneous one. Look them up, then report back.
Take a first year economics class and you report back. #1 Wheat in Canada is a completely homogeneous or completely fungible commodity. Gasoline is close, but there is at the very minimum, even if gas was all the same, brand differentiation.
Originally Posted By: Mximus1966
You didn't "suggest" it, you presented it as fact.
My point was that a station can have additives added at various levels. They can be added at the refinery if the refinery is the same brand as the retail location. The station can have them added in the delivery chain. They can be added at delivery time. They can be added at the pumps as per Costco USA.
If you feel that gasoline is all the same, feel free to use the cheapest gas you can find, or if it's all the same price, use whatever independent floats your boat. I won't be joining you.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
And Irving, like Petro Canada, is one of the companies that does refinery-sourced deliveries like Garak mentioned. They are a maritime family success story so we covered them in history class when I was going to school out there, pretty interesting actually.
Exactly. And the Co-ops up here buy fuel from no one, with their own refinery in the city. Yet, that doesn't stop people from claiming Co-ops sell some of the worst gas in the province, nor does it stop Co-op from claiming and selling the lowest octane premium in the province. But hey, what do I know? Co-op's E0 90.5 octane premium is obviously exactly the same as Husky's ethanol blended 93 octane premium, and Petro-Canada concocted a fuel shortage story to cover the fact that drunken staff didn't want to show up for work.
And Irving, like Petro Canada, is one of the companies that does refinery-sourced deliveries like Garak mentioned. They are a maritime family success story so we covered them in history class when I was going to school out there, pretty interesting actually.
Exactly. And the Co-ops up here buy fuel from no one, with their own refinery in the city. Yet, that doesn't stop people from claiming Co-ops sell some of the worst gas in the province, nor does it stop Co-op from claiming and selling the lowest octane premium in the province. But hey, what do I know? Co-op's E0 90.5 octane premium is obviously exactly the same as Husky's ethanol blended 93 octane premium, and Petro-Canada concocted a fuel shortage story to cover the fact that drunken staff didn't want to show up for work.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Maximus1966
Sorry that you still confused. It seems that you don't see the difference between a fungible commodity and a homogeneous one. Look them up, then report back.
Take a first year economics class and you report back. #1 Wheat in Canada is a completely homogeneous or completely fungible commodity. Gasoline is close, but there is at the very minimum, even if gas was all the same, brand differentiation.
It may be in your area, but right here we do have summer / winter blend and when there's refinery problem (i.e. fire) the state has to give waiver for non certified blend to be brought in from Nevada. Among local refineries they are all very similar grades that meet the RFG grade mandated by the state, but they are different based on their additives.
76 here have big advertisement that says their gas has even more detergent than top tier mandate. So, I don't think they are all the same (even if you don't think top tier make any difference in performance or cleanliness). Afterall this is California, and you get sued big time for any misleading information.
Originally Posted By: Maximus1966
Sorry that you still confused. It seems that you don't see the difference between a fungible commodity and a homogeneous one. Look them up, then report back.
Take a first year economics class and you report back. #1 Wheat in Canada is a completely homogeneous or completely fungible commodity. Gasoline is close, but there is at the very minimum, even if gas was all the same, brand differentiation.
It may be in your area, but right here we do have summer / winter blend and when there's refinery problem (i.e. fire) the state has to give waiver for non certified blend to be brought in from Nevada. Among local refineries they are all very similar grades that meet the RFG grade mandated by the state, but they are different based on their additives.
76 here have big advertisement that says their gas has even more detergent than top tier mandate. So, I don't think they are all the same (even if you don't think top tier make any difference in performance or cleanliness). Afterall this is California, and you get sued big time for any misleading information.
There's only one guy getting the padlock here. I think even someone as slow as me can guess who that will be!
Actually Maximus1966 is spot on.
Refinery's refine the crude oil,
They sell it to distributors.
It gets to the fuel distributors ie "fuel depot'(large storage tanks) by pipe line.
It's all the same product at this point.
All fuel/gas additives are added at the depot when the tanker truck is filled.
Branding=additives.
IF, if a station is adding a additive at the station, run away, ie drive away fast as they are covering up or trying to cover up a problem. It could be water who knows or something else is going on in their storage tank.
tt is nothing more than a additive/marketing gimmick.
Anyone can add the same additives them selves.
my source the API American petroleum institute
http://www.api.org/
Who tests the fuel at the pump, The DOT does, do they test for additives no. Just weights and measures...
Refinery's refine the crude oil,
They sell it to distributors.
It gets to the fuel distributors ie "fuel depot'(large storage tanks) by pipe line.
It's all the same product at this point.
All fuel/gas additives are added at the depot when the tanker truck is filled.
Branding=additives.
IF, if a station is adding a additive at the station, run away, ie drive away fast as they are covering up or trying to cover up a problem. It could be water who knows or something else is going on in their storage tank.
tt is nothing more than a additive/marketing gimmick.
Anyone can add the same additives them selves.
my source the API American petroleum institute
http://www.api.org/
Who tests the fuel at the pump, The DOT does, do they test for additives no. Just weights and measures...
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Originally Posted By: snofarmer
my source the API American petroleum institute
http://www.api.org/
Do you have a more specific link? Your link is no help at all
my source the API American petroleum institute
http://www.api.org/
Do you have a more specific link? Your link is no help at all
Why is this topic so heated? Top Tier sells for the same price as non-top tier around here. All things being equal, I'll fill up at the place that claims to use x additives compared the one that doesn't.
Best case, I get a few additives that may or may not help my vehicle. Worst case, I'm paying the same price for the same gasoline.
Best case, I get a few additives that may or may not help my vehicle. Worst case, I'm paying the same price for the same gasoline.
Originally Posted By: Jakegday
Originally Posted By: flinter
Ethanol Free gas is NOT available anywhere in NJ!
boy, that would suck. For people in your situation, ive always wondered, how do you get gas for your chainsaws, lawn mowers, 4 wheelers and other things that shouldnt get ethanol? drive out of state, or just use it anyways?
I don't understand all the ethanol hysteria. We've had nothing but E10 here in MA for many years, and no, it doesn't suck. My lawnmower sits all winter with whatever gas was left in the tank after the last mow, and it always starts right up every spring with no issue. Same for my "summer toy" car. The gas for my chain saw and generator has a little Stabil in it, but that's it.
Originally Posted By: flinter
Ethanol Free gas is NOT available anywhere in NJ!
boy, that would suck. For people in your situation, ive always wondered, how do you get gas for your chainsaws, lawn mowers, 4 wheelers and other things that shouldnt get ethanol? drive out of state, or just use it anyways?
I don't understand all the ethanol hysteria. We've had nothing but E10 here in MA for many years, and no, it doesn't suck. My lawnmower sits all winter with whatever gas was left in the tank after the last mow, and it always starts right up every spring with no issue. Same for my "summer toy" car. The gas for my chain saw and generator has a little Stabil in it, but that's it.
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