Tie rod ends and threads

[JHZR2]

Hi,

I have some play in the tie rod end on the right front of my 81 240D. It is an original tie rod, the permanently sealed boot worked for 75k miles and 30 years.

These are 16mm threads, while many of the aftermarket complete replacements are 14mm.

My reading indicates that many cars were delivered with different right and left tie rod assemblies, so that when aligning, both sides could be turned the same way to get the same effect. Is that true (not just with Mercedes, but overall)?

If I need a right front outer tie rod, what is the likely thread that is required, right hand or left hand? I dont exactly have a machine to go play on this.

Tie rod ends are about $13 each for no-name, and Made in Germany Lemfoerders are around $23, but are only available in 14mm. A complete tie rod (two ends and center coupling) is around $41.

Not sure if 16mm vs 14mm matters, though I guess 16mm is stronger and heavier.

Thanks!

 

[RiceCake]

All my tie rod ends are righty-tighty, lefty-loosey. The locking nut on them is what holds them in place, so its just easier to machine them with standard threads.

I've never seen one with reverse threads so you can turn them the 'same' way to do the alignment. For the most part, doing an alignment is far more complicated then to worry about making the tie rods turn the same directions.

 

[kschachn]

My BMW uses the same tie rod types. Like yours, one end on each assembly has a right hand thread while the other has a left hand thread. I went through this when I changed out mine, I wanted to know whether to put the left or right handed one out at the wheel or inside. It turns out that it does not matter and despite all the German overthinking that went into this car, BMW wasn't always consistent either.

FYI I first bought just the ends (Lemforder) but when I went to extract them from the tube they were seriously and permanently rusted into place. No way I could get them out of the threaded tubes. So I ended up buying the whole assembly anyway.

As part of that story I ended up with two extra Lemforder assemblies, P/N 1061701 (BMW P/N 32211135666. They wouldn't happen to be the same would they? In the package they are about 13 1/2 inches long.

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Hi,

I have some play in the tie rod end on the right front of my 81 240D. It is an original tie rod, the permanently sealed boot worked for 75k miles and 30 years.

These are 16mm threads, while many of the aftermarket complete replacements are 14mm.

My reading indicates that many cars were delivered with different right and left tie rod assemblies, so that when aligning, both sides could be turned the same way to get the same effect. Is that true (not just with Mercedes, but overall)?

If I need a right front outer tie rod, what is the likely thread that is required, right hand or left hand? I dont exactly have a machine to go play on this.

Tie rod ends are about $13 each for no-name, and Made in Germany Lemfoerders are around $23, but are only available in 14mm. A complete tie rod (two ends and center coupling) is around $41.

Not sure if 16mm vs 14mm matters, though I guess 16mm is stronger and heavier.

Thanks!

 

[kschachn]

No these are double ended assemblies. One end is left, one is right so you can adjust them.

Here: http://www.rmeuropean.com/Part-Number/Tie-Rod-Assembly-__32211135666_FEB_D18BD03A.aspx

Originally Posted By: RiceCake
All my tie rod ends are righty-tighty, lefty-loosey. The locking nut on them is what holds them in place, so its just easier to machine them with standard threads.

I've never seen one with reverse threads so you can turn them the 'same' way to do the alignment. For the most part, doing an alignment is far more complicated then to worry about making the tie rods turn the same directions.

 

[kschachn]

How many rod ends do you have on your Mercedes? I believe I counted 14 on the BMW. Two on each tie rod, two on the center tie rod, two on each sway bar link and one on each of the four control arms. Those Germans sure like rod ends...

 

[RiceCake]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
No these are double ended assemblies. One end is left, one is right so you can adjust them.


Crikey. Nothing wrong with over-engineering a car but the Germans need to realize stuff like that costs too much to buy and maintain; lol.

Nevermind then. The tie rods on my car are far far far far far far far simpler. Like...comparing an M16 to a door hinge simpler.

I'll go somewhere else, I'll stick to the boring domestic car repair threads, lol.

 

[Trav]

There must be a left and right thread joint on each side so you can adjust them with the center sleeve.
If both were right hand or left hand thread the sleeve would just go up one rod and pull back from the other without actually changing the length. You would instead need to remove the joint from the assy and turn it out/in the sleeve every time you needed to adjust.

16mm is a more robust unit commonly found on commercial chassis like taxi, ambulance, etc.
In every day use the difference between 14mm and 16mm is not a huge deal.
Rock has B&A 16mm ends cheap, they will be fine.

 

[Bottom_Feeder]

I would imagine that the outers are the same and the inners are the same, but the outers and inners are different from each other with reversed threads on one of them for exactly this reason.

 

[andyd]

Now I'm confused. I have replaced tie rod ends on the BMWs. I ordered tie rod ends, not the entire assembly. I just replaced the outers because they are the only one that wears.

Its been several yrs since messing with TREs. I have forgotten the process, but, IIRC, I turned each end individually. They are the same thread . They arent a set of oppos like a turnbuckle.

Yah, the BMW front end is loaded with ball joints and bushings. It is delicate and requires frequent attention. The good news is the parts are inexpensive and only basic hand tools are required.

 

[Trav]

Your 528e uses left hand thread for the inner and right hand for the outer, it doesn't matter which side.
Most domestic cars through the time rack and pinion steering became popular had the same thing as these German cars, absolutely nothing unique or different.

This set up was used for almost a hundred years and still is, many SUV and pickups still use it with their recirculating ball steering.

 

[CamCam]

Originally Posted By: RiceCake
All my tie rod ends are righty-tighty, lefty-loosey. The locking nut on them is what holds them in place, so its just easier to machine them with standard threads.

I've never seen one with reverse threads so you can turn them the 'same' way to do the alignment. For the most part, doing an alignment is far more complicated then to worry about making the tie rods turn the same directions.


I have often wondered. when somebody says "lefty loosy, righty tighty" are they looking at the top of the bolt head or bottom? when you turn something the top is going one way and the bottom is going the other....

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Your 528e uses left hand thread for the inner and right hand for the outer, it doesn't matter which side.
Most domestic cars through the time rack and pinion steering became popular had the same thing as these German cars, absolutely nothing unique or different.

This set up was used for almost a hundred years and still is, many SUV and pickups still use it with their recirculating ball steering.


So then my 240d should also have right hand thread for the outer tie rod ends, right?

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Trav
Your 528e uses left hand thread for the inner and right hand for the outer, it doesn't matter which side.
Most domestic cars through the time rack and pinion steering became popular had the same thing as these German cars, absolutely nothing unique or different.

This set up was used for almost a hundred years and still is, many SUV and pickups still use it with their recirculating ball steering.


So then my 240d should also have right hand thread for the outer tie rod ends, right?


On this 240D they could be either, just look at the threads. If the outer are right then the inner will be left and vise versa.

 

[kschachn]

The BMW dealer I go through said it was inconsistent from the factory. I could hardly believe that given the obsessive obsessiveness of the Germans but that is what they said. The service tech I talked to said when they replace them for the first time they find them both ways. I'm sticking to that story as this dealership has been trustworthy in the past but still...

So mine are random, am I going to die?

Originally Posted By: Trav
Your 528e uses left hand thread for the inner and right hand for the outer, it doesn't matter which side.

 

[andyd]

As long as the the assembly permits adjustment, it doesn't matter. BMW uses second sources for sub-assemblies, maintains a constant supply. Plus, they make rolling changes. You probably will be fine.

PS ,thank you for the class on TREs, make sense

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
No these are double ended assemblies. One end is left, one is right so you can adjust them.

Here: http://www.rmeuropean.com/Part-Number/Tie-Rod-Assembly-__32211135666_FEB_D18BD03A.aspx


Why is there an outer tie rod end on both ends?

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
The BMW dealer I go through said it was inconsistent from the factory. I could hardly believe that given the obsessive obsessiveness of the Germans but that is what they said. The service tech I talked to said when they replace them for the first time they find them both ways. I'm sticking to that story as this dealership has been trustworthy in the past but still...

So mine are random, am I going to die?

Originally Posted By: Trav
Your 528e uses left hand thread for the inner and right hand for the outer, it doesn't matter which side.


He is right it could definitely be either depending on who put it together. We had a lot of these cars in the fleet along with 325's and Opel Ascona's that we stocked parts for.
We had inner/outer tie rods in different bins, its possible they were assembled that way for commercial chassis.
The position doesn't matter as long as there is a left and right thread on the same side but it does make getting parts a bit of a pain.

 

[kschachn]

And, there are two more on the center tie rod that is attached to the Pittman arm and idler. A total of six just in the steering.

I have always wondered how this thing works. I mean, six randomly movable joints? That seems like several too many degrees of freedom to me. Obviously it isn't since it works, but to this amateur automotive engineer it seems like a lot of potential movement.

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: kschachn
No these are double ended assemblies. One end is left, one is right so you can adjust them.

Here: http://www.rmeuropean.com/Part-Number/Tie-Rod-Assembly-__32211135666_FEB_D18BD03A.aspx


Why is there an outer tie rod end on both ends?

 

[kschachn]

I can't believe you have success getting those ends out of the tubes. That slit that is cut in the tube (and clamped by the clamp) lets in moisture unlike the relatively sealed normal tie rod end. I packed mine with some fluorocarbon grease to try and keep the water out.

Which of course makes no sense since the next time they need replacing this car is going to be a pile of rust. But those tie rods are gonna look great

Originally Posted By: Trav
The position doesn't matter as long as there is a left and right thread on the same side but it does make getting parts a bit of a pain.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Trav


On this 240D they could be either, just look at the threads. If the outer are right then the inner will be left and vise versa.



Call me stupid, it's ok. How do I distinguish the thread being right vs left hand, looking at it crouched/slid under my car? I don't currently have access to ramps, and I'd like to order parts today so I can get an alignment next week.

Thx!!!