does ethanol in gas kill need for gasoline additives?

[bigpaulo]

Now that gasoline has at least 10% ethanol in the USA, will everyone now have clean fuel lines, intakes and valves? I've read many places that ethanol is a terrific solvent for gasoline related deposits, so I'm asking... will this be the death knell for fuel additives?

I've also read that ethanol has an affinity for water, so will that also kill the dry gas additive market?

The only thing I can see using a fuel additive for now would be to add some lost lubricity, which may be a significant loss with the new ethanol blended gas. Or maybe not? Anyone know for sure?

Oh, and octane boosters... same thing, not needed as ethanol increases octane rating of gasoline.

Heh, wait a minute... is this a way for petrodistillers to pump out inferior product and make more profit (i.e. lower octane gasoline + ethanol = regular octane gasoline)? Hmmm...

As long as I get the same or better mpg with E10 gasoline, I'm pretty happy... the jury is still out, though... hard to tell with the winter/summer brew switchover, and I'm in the midst of an AutoRX treatment, too. Too many variables to separate out gasoline changes for me right now

 

[labman]

I think much of your speculation is correct. 10% ethanol should take care of any water that gets in the gas. It will also remove deposits plain gasoline won't. And yes, the gas companies will take advantage of it to cut back on other expensive things.

 

[GMorg]

bigpaulo,

Can you provide a reference for US gas being 10% ethanol? I have seen it stated here several times, but I cannot independently confirm the statement as true.

 

[ted s]

its true in NY

 

[GMorg]

According to the following article, EtOH is required in only 35% of the US - those dirty-aired urban areas.

Story by Matthew Robinson
REUTERS NEWS SERVICE

http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/35388/story.htm

 

[bigpaulo]

OK, I did some googling, and it appears that it isn't a nation-wide thing, but for those states that have banned MTBE as an emission-reducing gasoline additive (and those who haven't yet, like MA where I live), 10 percent ethanol is rapidly becoming a defacto standard gasoline blend.

This article http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=130068 states

"Ethanol used in America amounts to less than 3 percent of gasoline sold. Last year, the country used 3.8 billion gallons of ethanol, compared with 140 billion gallons of gasoline, said Al Mannato, fuel issues manager at the American Petroleum Institute."

It appears all gasoline in MA has recently (last month or so) switched to 10 percent ethanol, and it appears to be gaining momentum nation-wide.

 

[GMorg]

Three percent of the gas equals about 30 percent of all gas being 10% EtOH. So our numbers are in agreement (30% vs 35%).

 

[unDummy]

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/rfg/whereyoulive.htm

Expect the Ethanol numbers to jump greatly this year with the demise of MTBE.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by unDummy:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/rfg/whereyoulive.htm

Expect the Ethanol numbers to jump greatly this year with the demise of MTBE.

---

I assume you are refering to the numbers in the price?

 

[labman]

I just spent some time answering a question in a PM. Thought it might give others here a little more backgound:

I tend to be a skeptic on additives. I do have a good understanding of solubilities. A few definitions. Aliphatic, chemicals mostly made up of chains of CH2 groups. They can be branched or be missing hydrogens, unsaturated. They start with methane and include propane, butane, octane in gasoline, diesel, dino, paraffin, polyethylene, etc. varying mostly by degree. It is like a set of drill bits, they are all about like the next one, but the half inch is very different from the 1/16''. Aromatic, named for their strong smell. They are unsaturated and have a ring structure. They start with benzene and the most common others are toluene and xylene. Aliphatic alcohol. Could be applied to methanol, but usually means a longer chain with an OH group somewhere. I don't know why, but 2 ethyl hexyl alcohol is common, a 6 carbon chain with an OH on one end, and a 2 carbon branch on the second carbon back from it.

In general, like dissolves like. Water dissolves salt; kerosene dissolves wax. The aromatics are an exception. They are kind of wishy washy, shifting their electrons around to dissolve both non polar and polar materials. In the presence of UV and oxygen, they form aldehydes and other irritating, toxic components of smog. In 1966, California passed ''Rule 66'' restricting their use where they were allowed to evaporate into the air. Big crisis for the paint industry. At that time, GM was using lacquers that went on at 85-90% solvent, containing a lot of toluene and xylene. I did a lot of work looking at alternatives. A partial solution is to use a mixture of aliphatic and alcohols. Neither one will dissolve the resins used in paint. A blend along with the allowable amounts of aromatics plus the more expensive ketones (acetone, MEK, MIBK) and esters will work.

So, the FT 10 may be a blend of alcohols and aliphatics that will dissolve deposits left by the largely aliphatic gasoline. Of course, as speculated, the E 10 may already have enough alcohol to do the job.

 

[Titan]

Thanks, labman!

 

[BUBBA0420]

Ethanol is hard on Fuel Pumps and Fuel Injectors
I try to avoid it here in Ohio and use MMO
for a lubricant. Never had a fuel injector or
fuel pump problem. Fuel Injectors are expensive
MMO is not

 

[moribundman]

My car's manual states the fuel may not contain more than 3% methanol, 10% ethanol, 15% MTBE or more than 2% CO solvents.

 

[michaelc80]

quote:

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Originally posted by BUBBA0420:
Ethanol is hard on Fuel Pumps and Fuel Injectors

---

Do you have a link to proof of that? Some additional information?

I've used 10% ethanol since the 1980's and never had a fuel injector/fuel pump problem related to the fuel so I would like to find some additional information.

I did replace the fuel injectors in my Z last year, but it was because the connectors were corroded-I don't think the ethanol had anything to do with that.

 

[csaxon]

BUBBA0420, I've been using ethanol since 1974 (Georgia) in 2 Mercedes (450sl and 280se), a Saab 9000 Turbo and 2 Toyotas (Avalon and Camry). I've never had a fuel pump or injector problem.

Price a fuel injector and then total up what you've spent on injector cleaners through the years. On some cars it's cheaper to get a new injector.
How many people over the years have had a bad fuel injector? Very few in my estimation.

 

[mechtech]

Methanol can be tough on parts, Ethanol is much kinder.

 

[bobo]

I've been running 10% ethanol blend gas in my 95 Nissan Maxima for a year. It is a 90 octane fuel, being marketed at 87 octane prices. My VQ engine loves it and my fuel economy and performance have not been compromised one iota.

 

[GT Mike]

Gasoline itself is probably harder on plastic parts in the fuel system than ethanol ever could be. Try this test...Take a couple of styrofoam cups, and fill one with gasoline, and the other with Everclear purchased at your local liquor store (it's about the closest thing to pure ethanol as you can find) and tell me what happens. The ethanol (Everclear, or "moonshine") will sit in the cup till it evaporates (or someone drinks it and has a fun evening

), and the gasoline will eat a hole in the cup eventually dissolving the entire thing if left long enough before it evaporates.

quote:

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Originally posted by bobo:
I've been running 10% ethanol blend gas in my 95 Nissan Maxima for a year. It is a 90 octane fuel, being marketed at 87 octane prices. My VQ engine loves it and my fuel economy and performance have not been compromised one iota.

---

We have a handful of stations here that have 89 octane E10 for less money than straight 87. Same thing in my Durango...No problems whatsoever, and no consistent change in MPG. My engine is a bit touchy on octane too...A cheap 87 octane will cause it to ping under load, but a better quality 87 will keep it quiet, so it must be right on the verge of needing a little more octane. The 89 octane of this E10 keeps the enigne quiet and happy.

 

[labman]

My experience is that you can't fill a styrofoam cup with gasoline, it goes right through it.

 

[Rickey]

Formaldehyde a known cancer causing agent is formed as a byproduct of use of alcohol as fuel in an internal combustion engine. Previously unknown to me is the fact that gasoline does the same thing but at a lesser rate. http://www.healtheffects.org/Pubs/st53.htm "Exposure to formaldehyde may occur at work, at home, and outdoors. Human studies, animal inhalation studies, and cell culture assays suggest that formaldehyde potentially can cause adverse effects on human health. Therefore, the Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990 defined formaldehyde as a toxic air pollutant subject to regulatory action. Emissions from motor vehicles using gasoline and diesel fuels contribute to the outdoor levels of formaldehyde. The projected use of methanol as an alternative fuel and in fuel blends may further increase outdoor formaldehyde levels because alcohol combustion yields more aldehydes than conventional fuel combustion."