Narrow for sure. I usually go a size down on my snow tires (not more, I don't want to affect my speedo too much)
Wider is Better for Winter Tires?
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I have always gone by what the rally drivers use.
Wider tires cost more..I do know that much. Hmmm.
Wider tires cost more..I do know that much. Hmmm.
A simple rule for sizing winter tires is to use the narrowest size listed in your car's owners manual (or maybe the size from a cheaper trim level of your car's model). You want the same outside diameter and the same load carrying capacity, but the narrower footprint.
Here's why. The pressure the tire puts on the snow can be measured in pounds per square inch. The weight on that tire remains the same (the pounds). If you reduce the number of square inches in contact with the snow, the pounds per square inch increases. If one tire has a weight of 1000 pounds on it, and you reduce the tire footprint from 10 square inches to 7, you've increased the pressure on the snow from 100 psi to 143 psi. More pressure = more grip (to a point).
Here's why. The pressure the tire puts on the snow can be measured in pounds per square inch. The weight on that tire remains the same (the pounds). If you reduce the number of square inches in contact with the snow, the pounds per square inch increases. If one tire has a weight of 1000 pounds on it, and you reduce the tire footprint from 10 square inches to 7, you've increased the pressure on the snow from 100 psi to 143 psi. More pressure = more grip (to a point).
Originally Posted By: jjjxlr8
Originally Posted By: Corvette Owner
Probably correct, but I would add that narrower tires are an advantage in ANY uncompacted snow.
Besides, who is looking for ultimate cornering in snow?!
This guy!!
I want a set of those for my Focus! It's a shame I can't fit 14'' wheels on the Focus so I could go narrower than 185/65-15
I have a thing for skinny tires:
Originally Posted By: Corvette Owner
Probably correct, but I would add that narrower tires are an advantage in ANY uncompacted snow.
Besides, who is looking for ultimate cornering in snow?!
This guy!!
I want a set of those for my Focus! It's a shame I can't fit 14'' wheels on the Focus so I could go narrower than 185/65-15
I have a thing for skinny tires:
Originally Posted By: krzyss
To reduce the footprint area you need to reduce the tire pressure too.
Without this you just change the shape.
Krzys
Ummmmmmmmm ... Reducing the tire pressure INCREASES the footprint area
Off-Road Tire Pressures
To reduce the footprint area you need to reduce the tire pressure too.
Without this you just change the shape.
Krzys
Ummmmmmmmm ... Reducing the tire pressure INCREASES the footprint area
Off-Road Tire Pressures
Less footprint make more more pounds per square in.. narrow tires. At least that's what one of my buddies say who lives where they get plenty of snow. He runs narrow tires just because of it. He most drives his Subaru AWD for it. Last I heard, he was looking into siping
Quote:
Last I heard, he was looking into siping
I've tried it. The benefit is small, much smaller than the advertising and the tire shops hunting for a way to pay for their siping machine tell us.
Last I heard, he was looking into siping
I've tried it. The benefit is small, much smaller than the advertising and the tire shops hunting for a way to pay for their siping machine tell us.
Snow tires should already have plenty of siping.
Siping DOES help, but a lot of it comes down to rubber compound. I could have the mud tires in my Jeep siped, and it would help a bit, but they would NEVER be able to compete with a winter compound tire.
Siping DOES help, but a lot of it comes down to rubber compound. I could have the mud tires in my Jeep siped, and it would help a bit, but they would NEVER be able to compete with a winter compound tire.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
It's obvious Dr. Topp is talking about pure snow traction - that is the affect tire wide has on in their traction testing - which is done in groomed snow where the tire is not allowed to touch the underlying surface. What he is saying, in essence, is that having more of the biting tread surface in contact with the snow is better. Perfect sense.
What he is NOT saying is about what happens if you can get down to the road surface - and the fact that narrow tires are more likely to get down to that road surface.
I know the article is trying to be helpful, but sometimes these technical types get wrapped up about a particular slice of the bologna (or is that baloney?) and forget the bigger picture.
Continental is not backing away from the "wider is better" mantra, at least for their line of performance winters. They have a web page dedicated to it:
http://www.continental-tires.com/www/tir...wide_tires.html
"It is a common misbelief that you shouldn’t use wide tires in winter. However, that is outdated. In fact, they offer a variety of benefits:
>the wider the tire, the better the performance in all wintry conditions
>more sipes that interlock with the ground, even on snow
>shorter braking distance due to larger tread blocks
>consistent and balanced drivability and better steering precision
>sportier driving comfort..........."
It's obvious Dr. Topp is talking about pure snow traction - that is the affect tire wide has on in their traction testing - which is done in groomed snow where the tire is not allowed to touch the underlying surface. What he is saying, in essence, is that having more of the biting tread surface in contact with the snow is better. Perfect sense.
What he is NOT saying is about what happens if you can get down to the road surface - and the fact that narrow tires are more likely to get down to that road surface.
I know the article is trying to be helpful, but sometimes these technical types get wrapped up about a particular slice of the bologna (or is that baloney?) and forget the bigger picture.
Continental is not backing away from the "wider is better" mantra, at least for their line of performance winters. They have a web page dedicated to it:
http://www.continental-tires.com/www/tir...wide_tires.html
"It is a common misbelief that you shouldn’t use wide tires in winter. However, that is outdated. In fact, they offer a variety of benefits:
>the wider the tire, the better the performance in all wintry conditions
>more sipes that interlock with the ground, even on snow
>shorter braking distance due to larger tread blocks
>consistent and balanced drivability and better steering precision
>sportier driving comfort..........."
From what I've found on the Jeep, wide tires work just fine in the snow. They're not as good at getting moving in slush, but they tend to be more stable on patchy or rough snow / ice. In deep snow, wider will help as you won't sink as far (and once you're dragging too much of the body, you're stuck). And as Conti says, they're more livable on pavement (less compromise to dry pavement grip).
Originally Posted By: 229
A smaller contact patch puts more surface tension on the area contacted for a given weight.
That's pressure - not tension.
I remember getting a set of Pirelli P Zero Nero M+S tires, which had an identical tread design to the P Zero Nero. I sent a message to Pirelli NA asking what the difference was besides the rubber that made it suitable as an M+S tire. I was told that the tire was designed to present a smaller contact patch.
I would just note that they sucked donkey b***s in the snow.
A smaller contact patch puts more surface tension on the area contacted for a given weight.
That's pressure - not tension.
I remember getting a set of Pirelli P Zero Nero M+S tires, which had an identical tread design to the P Zero Nero. I sent a message to Pirelli NA asking what the difference was besides the rubber that made it suitable as an M+S tire. I was told that the tire was designed to present a smaller contact patch.
I would just note that they sucked donkey b***s in the snow.
As it April 1 or something?
The WRC cars are the best/most obvious proof that narrower tires are better in most winter adverse conditions.
The misleading advice Continental is providing is irresponsible. At least 9 out of 10 drivers will have more grip and a safer ride using narrower tires in the winter.
Narrow tires cut through the snow better and their higher ground pressure is more likely to get a bite of the hard surface beneath snow. Wider tires ride on-top of the snow and slip and slide all over the place.
Let's see Continental do a test between the same cars on different tires.
The WRC cars are the best/most obvious proof that narrower tires are better in most winter adverse conditions.
The misleading advice Continental is providing is irresponsible. At least 9 out of 10 drivers will have more grip and a safer ride using narrower tires in the winter.
Narrow tires cut through the snow better and their higher ground pressure is more likely to get a bite of the hard surface beneath snow. Wider tires ride on-top of the snow and slip and slide all over the place.
Let's see Continental do a test between the same cars on different tires.
Any winter tire is going to be miles ahead of a all season tire. I think they are splitting hairs, you can't have a perfect tire for every situation.
I think that when driving in winter conditions, common sense and driver ability trump any tire design. If you're driving in winter conditions in a manner that makes you worry about wide/thin tires, then you're not using common sense and need to get off the road.
I don't have a problem with Continental's line of thinking. You will also notice that most of the top brand's, while not advocating a wider size, have over the last 10 years made theior winter tires with very flat & broad tread faces and squared off shoulders - appearing slightly flange-like where they meet the ground. When I tape-measure their tracks in the underground garage, they are a little bit wider than the same size all-seasons.
I think the theory is that more area gives the tires control surfaces (sippes, edges & compound features) more opportunity to do their work of finding resistance.
In a sense the same dynamic that gives you worse fuel economy & acceleration in dry conditions becomes desireable in certain slippery conditions like dense snow, frozen snow & ice.
I've tried it on both a light car and moderately heavy car and was pleased with in those conditions.
On shifting, mushy snow, it's definitely not as good as narrow.
I've heard some other people claim it's good with heavier cars but not lightr cars.
Either way there is no perfect solution for every winter scenario, you make the choice knowing where you live, wht type of winter conditions figure to give you the most trouble.
I think the theory is that more area gives the tires control surfaces (sippes, edges & compound features) more opportunity to do their work of finding resistance.
In a sense the same dynamic that gives you worse fuel economy & acceleration in dry conditions becomes desireable in certain slippery conditions like dense snow, frozen snow & ice.
I've tried it on both a light car and moderately heavy car and was pleased with in those conditions.
On shifting, mushy snow, it's definitely not as good as narrow.
I've heard some other people claim it's good with heavier cars but not lightr cars.
Either way there is no perfect solution for every winter scenario, you make the choice knowing where you live, wht type of winter conditions figure to give you the most trouble.
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
I think that when driving in winter conditions, common sense and driver ability trump any tire design. If you're driving in winter conditions in a manner that makes you worry about wide/thin tires, then you're not using common sense and need to get off the road.
You're right, but I'll still take a good set of snow tires over all seasons all day long!
I think that when driving in winter conditions, common sense and driver ability trump any tire design. If you're driving in winter conditions in a manner that makes you worry about wide/thin tires, then you're not using common sense and need to get off the road.
You're right, but I'll still take a good set of snow tires over all seasons all day long!
Originally Posted By: SLCraig
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
I think that when driving in winter conditions, common sense and driver ability trump any tire design. If you're driving in winter conditions in a manner that makes you worry about wide/thin tires, then you're not using common sense and need to get off the road.
You're right, but I'll still take a good set of snow tires over all seasons all day long!
Yup. And sometimes it's the other guy on the road that's not using common sense and I want all the tools I can get in order to get out of his way quickly, if need be.
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
I think that when driving in winter conditions, common sense and driver ability trump any tire design. If you're driving in winter conditions in a manner that makes you worry about wide/thin tires, then you're not using common sense and need to get off the road.
You're right, but I'll still take a good set of snow tires over all seasons all day long!
Yup. And sometimes it's the other guy on the road that's not using common sense and I want all the tools I can get in order to get out of his way quickly, if need be.
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